Hallelujah! God reenlists in Air Force

I know there are times when you might feel there’s no good news — especially when it comes to contending with groups like the Freedom from Religion Foundation (FFRF) or the oxymoronic Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF). It does seem as though the secular humanists are winning, but sometimes there is hope.

Today I get to share with you some good tidings. As reported by Military.com, “An airman’s career will be coming to an end unless he recognizes “God” in his oath of reenlistment. Months after the Air Force last year said “So help me God” was an optional line when taking the oath of enlistment or reenlistment, it reversed itself. The decision will require atheists to infer a belief in a supreme being if they want to remain in the military. At Creech Air Force Base in Nevada, the airman was told on August 25, 2014, that he would not be allowed to continue unless he recited the oath that references God. Monica Miller, an attorney for Appignani Humanist Legal Center in Washington said, “The government cannot compel a nonbeliever to take an oath that affirms the existence of a supreme being. Numerous cases affirm that atheists have the right to omit theistic language from enlistment or reenlistment contracts.”

Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t we swear court witnesses to “tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God”?

The United States of America is based on a Judeo-Christian faith heritage and those beliefs form the fundamental moral and legal core of our country. Remember the face that looks over the Speaker’s rostrum in the House of Representatives? It is that of Moses, the great lawgiver, who received the Ten Commandments from the Judeo-Christian God. I suppose Ms. Miller has an issue with that. Service in the United States military is voluntary and its members take an oath to support and defend the United States Constitution. That being the case, to whom should an oath or a pledge be rendered? That would be my question.

I am sure in the history of our American military there have been those who did not believe in God but still took their oath of enlistment or reenlistment.

“Reciting ‘So help me God’ in the reenlistment and commissioning oaths is a statutory requirement under Title 10 U.S.C. §502,” Rose Richeson told Military.com on Thursday. Air Force Instruction on the oath is consistent with the language mandated in the law, she said.

“Airmen are no longer authorized to omit the words ‘So help me God’,” Richeson said.

Miller called the Air Force’s decision “unbelievable.” She had given the Air Force two weeks to permit the Creech airman to re-enlist with an alternative oath or face further legal action.

The article went on to say,”She told Military.com that the airman’s current enlistment has not yet expired and he remains “in uniform” at Creech. Ms. Miller told the Air Force in a Sept 2 letter that commanders “may be sued in their individual capacities and be personally liable for damages along with attorney’s fees” for violating the law.

The Air Force said “So help me God” was optional last June after a similar flap arose at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama. Months later the Air Force Academy followed suit and made “So help me God” optional in the Cadet Oath.

Removal of the Cadet Oath was the result of the ongoing assault by Mikey Weinstein, head of MRFF, an Air Force Academy graduate, who made it a personal crusade to have the phrase removed. Weinstein was also behind demanding the United States Navy remove Bibles from their guest lodging facilities. The Navy at first acquiesced, then reversed its decision. Perhaps we’re starting to see Commanders take a stand and not allowing themselves to be pushed around by these special interest groups.

For reference, here is the oath of enlistment and reenlistment:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

A local commander could possibly waive the final phrase, but it is law. The last thing we need at this time are secular humanist lawyers tying up the United States Military with frivolous lawsuits. Worse than that, I can imagine President Barack Hussein Obama taking out his pen or phone and decisively making a determination — one he’d find easier than attacking ISIS.

I proudly and honorably took the oath of office as a commissioned officer several times and also as a Member of Congress. That’s what Americans do.

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732 Comments on "Hallelujah! God reenlists in Air Force"

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Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

What value is an oath that is not true? Seems to me it would be better to just come out and exclude atheists rather than compel them to lie under oath…

Wanda Samuelson
Guest
Everyone knows they are bound to carry out “orders” by this oath, the UCMJ, tradition and expectations of leadership, etc. EXCEPT we are also excused by the UCMJ to not follow orders we consider immoral or unlawful. So, since we are provided an opportunity elsewhere to disregard certain orders we morally or deem unlawful, then should we dispense with the oath entirely? Ridiculous, and these are ridiculous fits of whining by people who are atheists–full grown adults insisting that they must be accommodated in ways that suit only themselves. If one does not follow an order they morally object to,… Read more »
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

That makes no sense at all. No one suggested any of that nonsense. It’s whining to object to an oath to a deity one does not believe exists? That’s irrational. No one suggested the military could not swear an oath to whatever deity one believes in, it was suggested that requiring it is unconstitutional – which it is. By the way, Wanda, do not make assumptions about my personal beliefs on the basis of defending the Constitution.

Wanda Samuelson
Guest

…and since you brought it up, what do you belief in–just so we can be clear on what you are talking about?

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

For the purposes of this discussion I believe in the Constitution. My personal religious beliefs are irrelevant. I am always happy to discuss religious beliefs in the appropriate venue.

Wanda Samuelson
Guest

BTW, you think you believe in the Constitution… I defended it by taking this oath a number of times and would again.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

[email protected] All you did was repeat the words if that.

Wanda Samuelson
Guest

I dunno, sounds like hate speech to me. Tsk, tsk, 40 years ago I put up with muggers like you everyday on the flightline, your remark is childish–but revealing. After a comment like that, it’s doubly clear that you are no defender of the Constitution.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Muggers? LOL! Throwing a little hissy there girly?

Wanda Samuelson
Guest

Actually, you’re projecting your behavior onto me, again. Your attack and robbery (definition of mugger) on my contribution during military service is shameful, but who’s surprised by more childish antics…? No more feeding the troll.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Actually alia… much I have seen of your own posting has been quite childish…

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Dish it out but you sure can’t take it. Pathetic. You wouldn’t know Christ if he walked up and handed you a fish and even less of the Constitution.

Wanda Samuelson
Guest

RE: YOUR original comment:
“What value is an oath that is not true? Seems to me it would be better to just come out and exclude atheists rather than…”

You began your comments in regard to atheists, I commented in regard to atheists and you personalize it??? Who is the troll? You don’t really need to clarify… you are coming across LOUD and CLEAR

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Sorry, wanda. You are floundering… You went off on a rant that was totally irrelevant then tried repeatedly to redirect. It just isn’t going to happen, troll.

Wanda Samuelson
Guest

Thank you for your apology, I gladly accept and it was well deserved, but then you went on and on. I will pray for you.

Wanda Samuelson
Guest

glad to help!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

That makes no sense either.

Wanda Samuelson
Guest

Surprise, surprise…

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

what inane silliness you post… You wish to seem intellectual and worldly and yet somehow you manage to do just the opposite… sad…

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

troll

Wanda Samuelson
Guest

So, what part about whining about this does not make sense at all?

“and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military
Justice. So help me God.”

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Do you think it is possible we could see you keep your word “No more feeding the troll”??? The “So help me God” is inflammatory, unneeded and discriminatory!!!

Sandra Goetz
Guest

seems to me, our military should swear to an oath that was presented by our founding fathers in our government’s original documents.

Dave Haughs
Guest
The original enlisted oath did not have not have “So help me God” at the end. That was added sometime in the 1950s (or early 1960s I can’t recall the exact date right now). And until recently was optional. Our founding fathers were deists. They held many Christian values, but they also knew the dangers of intertwining the church and government. Many quotes have already been repeated above. Do some research. We have freedom of religion and what has become very obvious to me from the discussions on this news piece all over the internet is that the vocal individuals… Read more »
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

You believe an individual must be religious in order to fight for the country? That’s frightening.

Sandra Goetz
Guest

actually, I do. If you don’t want to fight for what our country stands for, then why do it?

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

We are not and have never been simply a “Christian” country so forcing people to swear to the “Christian” God is ridiculous!

Brendan
Guest

freedom of religion is one of those Founding principles that we defend.
There are many proud patriotic atheists who have fought for this country so you could have the freedom to spout your incorrect history of the US

Elliot Grove
Guest

Did you have government & civics in high school?
If not, write your school board. That’s an important class to have.

Bren Pool Vignaroli
Guest

Actually Elliot…our high schools are as corrupt as the administration that is sitting in office right now…they have stripped our children of the education they deserve by replacing the books and teachers with a bunch of socialized propaganda. Important class to have? Yes….but not when it has been completely obliterated by a bunch of socialist freaks who are hell bent on taking religious values and morals out of the equation. Sandra gets it Elliot…do you?

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Idiots like you are why I am so happy I chose to home school my children… Who by the age of 13 had already read a large portion of our founding fathers writings and likely know more about the Constitution and Bill of Rights/Amendments than the majority of adults I have seen here… I am absolutely positive they know more than you!!!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Unbelievable. Take a civics class.

Sandra Goetz
Guest

Love to debate you sometime if you can come out of attack mode.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

There is no point in debating a religious zealot.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest
I disagree Carl… Every once in awhile you come across one that can actually be shown reason and listen to it, be led to truth and reality and believe it and get this… they manage to do so and retain their faith, they just adjust the realities their faith is based on… Shoot in this thread I had a wonderful conversation with a young man who was both reasonable and respectful… Did we change one each others minds? No, we did not but we did obtain different and reasonable viewpoints from each other and I know that if during our… Read more »
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Zealot: a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.
You were not conversing with a zealot.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

He did seem one in the beginning alia… Believe 🙂 But it is alright… While I disagree with your tactics many times over all we tend to agree on most things that I have seen here… And I have found myself a bit harsh with you at times… Your the type of man who would drive me absolutely bonkers in real life 🙂

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

“…drive me absolutely bonkers in real life.”
You say that as if it were a bad thing… 😉

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Indeed hahahahaha 🙂 It can actually keep things quite alive and interesting.

Valenburg
Guest

I by no means consider myself a fully religious man. I do however believe that the United states was built on the idea that a Christian gods’ idea of all men being created equally has made the US so appealing for all relgions to practice in. You don’t have to be Christian to be in the US just realize the guiding principles are what make this country so great. I bet all those “atheists” still take the red letter Christian holidays off!

nhale
Guest

I wonder what other Academy graduates think of Weinstein.

Tom Trevor
Guest

You asked be corrected so here goes, in court now days you can either swear to tell the truth, or affirm that you will tell the truth. You swear to god, but affirm to who knows what.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

To personal integrity under threat of perjury,.

TruConserv
Guest

“Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t we swear court witnesses to “tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God”?”

You’re wrong.

All courts have alternate swearing or affirmation oaths available for the non-religious.

For example, in California the alternative is:

“You do solemnly state, under penalty of perjury, that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.” (Chapter Law 688, Statutes of 2000)

So, yea, you’re wrong, Mr. West.

henryhiggins
Guest

Col West was not “kicked out” of the military. He resigned., albeit under duress, because he made the honorable decision to put the lives of the men under his command above the politically correct rules of interrogation. Nothing to do with his oath.

Nicko Thime
Guest

Bullshit.
Forced to leave rather than face court martial for torturing prisoners.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

So basically… He failed to follow orders… got it!

Brendan
Guest

Abusing prisoners is not honorable.

TruConserv
Guest

He made the disgraceful decision to dishonor the code of conduct, to harm unit moral and cohesion — or so he admitted!

His little voyage into torture produced no actionable intelligence and tormented a man whom was later revealed to be not a terrorist.

Forced to resign is the same as getting kicked out, and we all know it.

henryhiggins
Guest
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Really? Do you think uttering a few words stops people, so inclined, from lying? I hope, as a juror, you don’t take testimony at face value just because someone took an oath…

Sandra Goetz
Guest

If this is true, I would have trouble as a juror hearing any testimony as the truth.

TruConserv
Guest
It’s true in every jurisdiction. Do you think non-religious people should be permitted to testify at trials? If so, should they be forced to begin that testimony by lying? If they don’t believe in God, and then swear to be accountable to that God, then they are lying. If we force them to lie at the outset, then why can’t they lie during their testimony? Here’s the bottom line: the Constitution guarantees no establishment of religion, and forcing someone to swear to a God establishes that the United States believes in a God, that the US has established God as… Read more »
BringBackAMerica
Guest

California? The most liberal joke of a state? What a surprise.

TruConserv
Guest
It’s actually in all states. What state do you prefer — I’ll look up the alternative oath for you. Here’s the problem with Un-American activists like Mr. West — they haven’t read the Constitution. Specifically, Article VI of the Constitution prohibits requiring religious tests to hold an office or public trust. Further, were the airman to swear to a God in whom he doesn’t believe, the airman would be lying. Do we really want airmen being forced to lie? FWIW: the Air Force formerly provided an exception for non-religious airmen. Air Force Instruction 36-2606 spells out the active-duty oath of… Read more »
henryhiggins
Guest

Military service is voluntary. Therefore, no one is being forced to lie. If they choose to lie, they do so voluntarily. If you cannot take the oath , then you don’t belong in our military.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Encouraging religious bigotry and discrimination is disgusting!!!

Elliot Grove
Guest

“If you can’t take the oath and swear to god, you don’t belong in the military” -henryhiggins
” no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.” -Article 6

Now, i forget. Is it henryhiggins, or Article 6 that is legally binding in this country?

TruConserv
Guest

It’s unconstitutional.

Article VI of the Constitution prohibits requiring religious tests to hold an office or public trust.

Service in the military is a position of public trust. No religious test is permitted, if you believe in the Constitution, that is.

I do — what about you?

Glenn
Guest

Excellent news… now send these Freedom from Religion Foundation (FFRF) @ss hats to the middle east and see what they can accomplish there….

Brendan
Guest

Actually, people like Mr West who wish to force religion on others would probably be more comfortable there

Glenn
Guest

Unsubscribe please

'Larry Singleton
Guest

Um, if you don’t even believe in a God, then why would swearing to a non-existent “entity” offend you?

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

As I have said before… Because lying is WRONG!

Brendan
Guest

Honor and integrity.
You should not be forced to swear to anything against your beliefs.

that… plus that pesky Constitution.

TruConserv
Guest

Because you’re being forced to lie. The overwhelming majority of Airmen are people of honor. They don’t like lying.

henryhiggins
Guest

Not being forced to lie. The military is voluntary. Can’t take the oath without lying? Don’t join.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

So basically you are encouraging and endorsing religious discrimination which is ILLEGAL!!!

Elliot Grove
Guest

Please re-read article 6 of the constitution.

'Larry Singleton
Guest
No, it would not be lying. If you don’t BELIEVE in God, then telling someone you “swear” to them is not a lie at all. Swearing to “nothing” is not really even “swearing” at all, is it? It would be the same as saying, “I swear to BigFoot.” It’s only a lie if you BELIEVE in God but do not hold up to what you are swearing to. And it does not say “Christian God” anywhere – so it is not a “specific religious belief” in any fashion. It could be Buddha, Allah, Zeus, Isis – any “God” in history… Read more »
WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

I do not call my religious Deity “God” therefore swearing to “God” would be a falsehood… How can you be so dang nonsensical!!!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Larry, do you really think that is a rational statement? Swearing before god when one does not believe is a false oath and therefore, a lie. You presume a belief in a deity is the only option. Come on…

'Larry Singleton
Guest

It can’t be an “oath” if no actual belief system is involved. A person can “swear” to anything and the sincerity does not rest on belief in such a thing. My point is that non-believers who are protesting this requirement are just being argumentative.

Nicko Thime
Guest

My point is that “believers” are forcing their agenda in others even though they have zero evidence that their agenda has any merit whatsoever.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

And… My point is those of you insisting that people swear to something they do not believe in or a different deity than their religion calls for are argumentative as well as Constitutionally ignorant…

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Amazing. Any time one gives one’s word, it’s an oath. Project much?

TruConserv
Guest

Of course it’s a lie — it’s a lie that you calling on God to help you when you aren’t. It also mocks God, and I don’t like that.

Art. VI – no religious tests. That’s the Constitution.

'Larry Singleton
Guest

As I just got through saying – if you are a non-believer, it’s definitely NOT a lie. Swearing to Bigfoot is not a lie either. Get the point here? If you don’t have any sincerity in the item to which you are swearing, then it is not a lie. It’s the same as swearing to a bucket of water or a pile of poo.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

It is Is IS a lie…. OMG! How freaking ignorant can one person be?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

TruConserv
Guest

If I swear that Bigfoot will help me when I know there is no Bigfoot, I’ve lied. I’ve stated that Bigfoot will help me when I know that he won’t.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

It boggles the mind how anyone could possible be so utterly blind. I’m thinking you are just a troll…

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

I’m with you on that one!

'Larry Singleton
Guest

I’m just being logical, not blind at all. If you don’t believe in a God, then swearing to that non-existent “thing” should not offend you to the tiniest degree. That’s perfect logic.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

It is logical that it would be LYING to swear to a GOD you have no belief in…

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

That’s insane

MuffinMom703
Guest

lol, I was just saying the same thing.

'Larry Singleton
Guest

Everyone knows that’s not a lie, because BigFoot is not real. You would be making a joke, not a lie.

Elliot Grove
Guest

How you feel about bigfoot, we feel about god.
But we don’t lie to bigfoot believers and say “oh, yeah, we saw him too”. That would be lying….

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Because it would by lying and that offends personal integrity. More importantly, Larry, what purpose does swearing to something one does not believe in serve? Do you really believe that a specific religious belief should be required for military service?

'Larry Singleton
Guest
No, it would not be lying. If you don’t BELIEVE in God, then telling someone you “swear” to them is not a lie at all. Swearing to “nothing” is not really even “swearing” at all, is it? It would be the same as saying, “I swear to BigFoot.” It’s only a lie if you BELIEVE in God but do not hold up to what you are swearing to. And it does not say “Christian God” anywhere – so it is not a “specific religious belief” in any fashion. It could be Buddha, Allah, Zeus, Isis – any “God” in history… Read more »
WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

You did not answer the question that Carl asked… “Do you really believe that a specific religious belief should be required for military service?” I want to hear you answer… I have a sad feeling it will be as ignorant as the rest of your postings but I admit to a sick curiosity…

Elliot Grove
Guest

So can I swear to “Allen West’s understanding of the 1st amendment”? Since clearly that doesn’t exist either…..

'Larry Singleton
Guest

Elliot, can you point out to me the part of this story where Congress is involved? Because military swear-ins are not in that dang 1st amendment anywhere !!!

Elliot Grove
Guest

The Constitution grants Congress the sole power to declare war.
And who fights those wars? Oh, that’s right, the military.

'Larry Singleton
Guest

Weaksauce. There is no “religious compelling” happening by an enlistee saying “So help me fantasyman.”

Elliot Grove
Guest

So can we have the armed forces swear to Allah, then?

'Larry Singleton
Guest

Islamic military members mean that entity when they say “God” so we already are.

Elliot Grove
Guest

So islamic members are fine, christians, jews. How about hindu’s? Do they have to swear to all their gods? How about buddhists, as they are technically atheists as well (no actual deity in their belief)?

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

The government cannot compel religion. Come on, Larry.

'Larry Singleton
Guest

It’s not compelling the enlistees to believe in anything. Or do I miss that part?

Elliot Grove
Guest

“Swear to god or you can’t join” is definitely compelling people to do so.
How about “swear to god or you can’t get a driver’s license”? Is that compelling someone?

'Larry Singleton
Guest

Only required to SAY IT, NOT BELIEVE IN IT !!! Jesus H. Christ is that difficult to understand !!!????!?!?!?!?!

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

SAYING IT AND NOT BELIEVING IT IS LYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elliot Grove
Guest

So many things wrong…..
Can’t even begin….
Forcing someone to swear allegiance and support by something they don’t believe in……but you think it’s fine because they don’t believe…..i don’t get…..how can you think…..

'Larry Singleton
Guest

It’s no different that saying “I SWEAR TO UNICORN !!!” Would anyone complain about that? People only complain because they feel like something is being pushed onto them – but they are wrong – nothing is being pushed on anyone !! Say your “oath to fantasyman” and continue on with your non-believing !!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

You’ve lost all grasp of reality now… Go get some rest.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Yes, you missed that part.

Paul Sheridan
Guest

There’s absolutely no way this holds up in court. You can’t compel someone to express belief in a deity as a condition of keeping their job. The first federal judge who get this thing is going to throw it out in a hot minute and the Supreme Court will decline to hear appeals. Guaranteed.

Sandra Goetz
Guest
Here’s the deal – and go watch the recent video of Phil Robertson and Sarah Palin – our founding father’s created our government based on the TEN COMMANDMENTS. And here’s the other thing, people can come to this country recognizing that and either ignore it or follow it. If you want to fight to defend a country that was found in Judeo Christian principles, then you take the oath “So Help Me God.” If you don’t want to, don’t fight for the country that believes in that. And because people (on both sides) have become weak at the knees and… Read more »
WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

You are so VERY wrong!!!!! Please PLEASE, I am begging you… Do some research on the founding fathers and their beliefs!!!!

Brendan
Guest

Your history of America is incorrect. Citing Sarah Palin and Phil Robertson as experts in American history is hilarious.

Our Founders left many writings behind, detailing their intent.
If you wish to for e religion on others, try that in Iran or some other country that forces religion on others.
Our principles are in direct opposition to that.

Sandra Goetz
Guest

obviously you didn’t watch the video.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

OBVIOUSLY you are uninformed and do not know history nor the writings of the founding fathers of this country!!!

Brendan
Guest

Obviously you’ve never actually read the Constitution or any of the writings left behind by the men who wrote the Constitution who explained its meaning clearly.

And yes I’ve seen video (maybe not the same one you saw0 of Sarah Palin and Phil Robertson both misinterpreting the Constitution.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

I particularly find the one of Phil Robertson stating that men should look for wives in 15 and 16 year old’s because by the time they are 18 they are too WHATEVER….. That was an interesting video this lovely “Christian” man encouraging child molestation…..

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Wynema, he was talking about young men in that same age bracket. Please stop with the silliness.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Actually he is not… But that is alright, keep believing what you wish alia…

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

No, actually, he is not talking about pedophilia. That’s another of your irrational prejudices. You want to believe that’s what the man intended because you don’t like him.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

I did not say he was talking about pedophilia I said molestation which LEGALLY it is when a male over 18 initiates a relationship with with a girl under the age of 18… I have no dislike for him, in fact I watched the show until I became bored with it, you sure seem to project a lot of BS onto others alia…

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

I don’t believe the man intended harm and I’ll just leave it at that… Realizing the addition of “I believe” to an expression of opinion is grammatically incorrect, I shall do just that anyway. I believe Phil Robertson is a good man with honest intent. His lifestyle and method may be a bit unorthodox but bully for him anyway. I find it entertaining at times. : )

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

As is your option… I found it entertaining for awhile and then got a bit bored with the scripted reality. Working in that particular industry I know how things go and it includes the DD… I wish they would just stop scripting “reality” shows and allow the to be reality or just stop doing them 🙁

Harvey Wolney
Guest

The founding father’s were probably rational and more intelligent than you. I would like to see the proof this nation was built on ten commandments.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

I feel so sad when I see our alia chiponta (children) growing up so ignorant and mistaken… THIS is why I choose to home school my children!!!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

You have your share of irrational prejudices as well…

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Just where in what I said was the words “irrational prejudices” I believe what I said was “ignorant and mistaken” stop making an idiot of yourself alia…

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

LOL ! I said irrational prejudices. I never said you said it. Good grief. Based on your comments you are prejudiced against all Christians which is irrational.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest
Please show me a single word that I have said that was anti-Christian or against all Christians… I am not and never have been, I was a Christian myself for well over 30 years, taught Sunday school and everything… My father is the most awesome Christian I have ever met in fact to be honest my entire family is Christian and it took them over 20 years of preaching and cajoling and threatening me with an eternity of burning in hell to finally realize that my no longer being a Christian does not make me a bad person and that… Read more »
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

If I misjudged, kindly accept my apology. By the way, I am not fluent in the Choctaw language though I have the bloodline.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest
I do and please accept mine as well… I have been a bit harsh and yes sarcastic in some spots to you as well, like I have said before 🙂 If I feel attacked or insulted sometimes I get snarky 🙂 As for the Choctaw if you go to the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma web site they have a lot of resources including help in tracing your heritage… I come from the Jones line (IE: Jone Academy etc…) ALSO they offer a Chahta Anumpa class online that is free of charge except for getting the book… Chahta Anumpa being “Choctaw… Read more »
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Peace.

MuffinMom703
Guest

It’s not an infringement. They are free to not take the oath and they are free to not be in the military. No one is forcing the military on them. If they can’t take that oath honestly then they can’t in good conscience fight for the principles this country stands for. Sort of like our president can’t.

Nicko Thime
Guest

Or like Reagan?
John Wayne?
Dick Cheney?
As an atheist AND a Purple Heart combat vet, you can kiss my ass.

Brendan
Guest

Nonsense.
What if the oath insisted you renounce God?
Would you make the same argument that you don’t have to join if you’re not willing to swear against your religious beliefs?

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

That’s just ridiculous. How dare you denigrate my 10 years of faithful service to my country. How dare you!

Elliot Grove
Guest

No one is forcing you to get a drivers license, so having you swear that you love Allah and support the prophet Muhammad to get your driver’s license isn’t an infringement either, then.

You do know that the freedom to be any religion, or none at all, is part of what our country was founded on? You know, that whole 1st amendment thing? And article 6 of the constitution?

MuffinMom703
Guest

What I know is that muslim extremists are infiltrating our military and murdering them from within. That’s what I know.

Nicko Thime
Guest

You KNOW very little. You imagine quite a bit.

Brendan
Guest

You’re deluded

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

INDEED!!!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Irrelevant to this discussion

Elliot Grove
Guest

Wow. You really, REALLY don’t get it then.
Do you think that the government should require people be a certain religion, or ban a certain religion?

Bren Pool Vignaroli
Guest

You know what Elliot…when it comes to AMERICAN’S being murdered and beheaded…or just shot and killed on the streets of America because the enemy INFIDELS have infiltrated our way of life and well being…then HELL YES, we have to do everything in our power to make sure OUR rights are protected. Even if that means banning a certain religion or person from entering our safety zone. That’s why we have borders…and that is why YOUR president wants to take them down. YOU…Elliot, are the one who really doesn’t “get it” do you??

Nicko Thime
Guest

So you’ll be shipping out when?
I just know that you can’t wait to serve, so good luck with that stint in the service of our country.

Elliot Grove
Guest

Then you are anti-american. plain and simple.
You want a religious litmus test and to ban a religion.
You officially hate the constitution.

Harvey Wolney
Guest

What do you mean by a certain religion or person?

Bren Pool Vignaroli
Guest

…and what do YOU mean by Ghetto Jesus?

Nicko Thime
Guest

Hey, Jeebus comes in all sorts of forms, few of which have any resemblance to the myth.

Bren Pool Vignaroli
Guest

Seriously Harvey? What do you think I meant?

MuffinMom703
Guest

No, I don’t believe that. But what good is an oath if it is not sworn by something meaningful? Sort of pointless. I know our president took an oath to defend the US and yet he said if the tides turn he will stand with the muslims. His words, not mine.

Merv99
Guest

The US Constitution specifies the exact oath the president must take upon entering office. Here is an exact quote:

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

Notice that there is no “So help me God” at the end. (Look it up for yourself if you don’t believe me.) Does this mean the Constitution is specifying a pointless and meaningless oath?

Nicko Thime
Guest

So swearing an oath on an imaginary sky fairy is somehow meaningful?
Your misrepresentation of what Obama said is pretty much an outright lie.

TruConserv
Guest
Not his words. “In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.Read… Read more »
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

My word and personal integrity isn’t meaningful? So you require something external for you to be honorable?

Elliot Grove
Guest

“”I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.”-Fiction!This is a corruption of a quote from Obama’s book The Audacity of Hope. It is from a section that talks about the concerns of immigrants who are American citizens.”
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-books.htm#.VAs8x_uYFwg

So lets make this clear: If I want to join the military, but not swear to god because I don’t believe in a god, should I be allowed?

Bren Pool Vignaroli
Guest

NOPE…you shouldn’t because your heart wouldn’t be in the right place to fight for America especially if you don’t believe in God. Go fight side by side with the Iranians…and stay the hell out of our military. We have seen what happens when a turncoat sleeps with his enemy.

Nicko Thime
Guest

God was left out if the Constitution intentionally. You are why.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

You unAmerican bigoted fool!!! There are over 3000 recognized religions in the US alone you ignoramus!!! ONLY ONE is Muslim and only ONE is CHRISTIAN!!!

Nicko Thime
Guest

Dozens are ‘christian”, maybe hundreds/

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

I was changed it… just for you… My point is the same… This is not just a Christian country it is a country with a multitude of different religions, races, cultures and other beliefs… This is why forcing someone to say “So help me God” is discriminatory and wrong…

Elliot Grove
Guest

You do realize that the iranians are very indoctrinated in their religion, don’t allow nonbelievers, and actively shun them and won’t let them in the military.
Explain to me how they are any different from you, apart from praying to a different interpretation of god?

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

That part of the oath referring to domestic enemies of the Constitution refers to you. How dare you denigrate my service.

Bren Pool Vignaroli
Guest

How dare you insult my intelligence…for all I know you are just another liberal lovin’ hater…maybe even a domestic enemy living in the USA. This is the Internetssss Carl…get a grip.

Nicko Thime
Guest

Purple Heart vet here. You are slime.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

And YOU are an ignorant TROLL!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Based on that comment you have no intelligence to insult.

Sandra Goetz
Guest

sad to say that Carl thinks if you don’t agree with him that you denigrate his service.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

sad to say that if I don’t agree with you I have no merit. You are insane.

Sandra Goetz
Guest

well, I see you made my point.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

You are as blind as any I have experienced.

MuffinMom703
Guest
ok, so you don’t believe in a god. so if you don’t believe in a god at all then making an oath to a god should make no difference to you because he doesn’t exist in your eyes. hypothetically speaking of course. Basically, if you athiest, it shouldn’t matter to you one way or another because God doesn’t exist to you. I think the athiest want to remove all things that are Godly from our country. And they are using the pretense of removing “religion”. But God is different from religion. The athiests that I have spoken with online are… Read more »
WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

So in your sad ignorance you would have a man or woman lie??? Swear to a God they do not believe in or to a God who is not the deity of their particular religion??? You are as bad as the zealots that our forefathers escaped Europe to be free of!!!

An Atheist DOES NOT Hate GOD… God does NOT exist to an Atheist… WOW!!! You really need to get an education!!!

Brendan
Guest

Atheists hate God the same way you hate the tooth fairy.
You can ‘t hate something you don’t believe exists.

MuffinMom703
Guest

When ISIS decides to kill, they are not going to ask you if you believe in God. They are going to kill you because you are not muslim. We are in a holy war , like it or not.

Nicko Thime
Guest

Religion does make folks sick. Look what it is doing to you.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Nonsense. We are in a war against lunatics who want to kill us, whatever their reason. People like you turn rational people away from religion.

Elliot Grove
Guest

That seems to be the answer religious people make, “if you don’t believe, it shouldn’t matter”. But that doesn’t’ answer my question.

And if you are talking to people that believe in god and hate him, they are Maltheists, not atheists.

But you still have to answer the question: If I am going to join the military or take public office, should i have to swear an oath to god or not?

MuffinMom703
Guest

Elliot, the reason I have not answered the question is because I do not honestly know the answer. I know what I would like the answer to be, but I don’t know if I am right or not. God himself gives the right to every man to accept Him or deny Him.

Nicko Thime
Guest

In other words, until you adopt a particular mind set, a certain mentality, you will not see that gawd is real?

When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.
Insanity is believing your own hallucinations are real.
Religion is believing someone else’s hallucinations are real.

Elliot Grove
Guest
You preclude the existence of god with the last sentence, but i will skip that. It’s a simple answer. If you believe the constitution is the document we run our country by, then the answer is “no, you don’t have to do that.” If the answer is “yes you should,” then you don’t believe in the constitution and article 6. If you do not know the answer, then don’t say things like “It’s not an infringement. They are free to not take the oath and they are free to not be in the military.” You bely an intent of certainty… Read more »
MuffinMom703
Guest

I am a Christian. My belief system is based first on the Word of God. Secondly the constitution. I support your right to be ungodly.

Nicko Thime
Guest

So you would support a theocracy over democracy?

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

But you would require me to take an oath to a deity? That’s what we are talking about.

Elliot Grove
Guest

Then if you support that, then please say that Allen West is wrong here, and having to swear to god for US government service is unconstitutional and wrong.

I have to go teach class now. But I really hope you understand that to be an american means that your belief may be word of god first, constitution second, but the moment you have to act with government authority, such as a soldier, elected official, etc., then those priorities need to switch when acting in an official capacity.

Bren Pool Vignaroli
Guest

GOD HELP the youth in your class…may they see through your BS and move above and beyond your liberal mindset.

MuffinMom703
Guest

I support Allen West to believe as he wishes in this free country.

TruConserv
Guest

The Founding Fathers were deists, mostly, and they specifically did not follow the 10 Commandments.

Here’s all you need to know.

The 1st Commandment is “Thou shalt have no other gods”

The FF wrote in the First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”

There you have it. Full stop. The Founding Fathers specifically and deliberately stated that you can have any God you want, or no God at all. They completely denied the enforcement of the 1st Commandment.

Chris Moore
Guest

That is completely not what it means. They wanted to limit the federal government from being able to specify what religion you must practice in the manner that England had done with the Church of England.
The government can’t tell you what religion to practice, but not practicing a religion is not a protected right. There is no freedom from exposure to religion and anyone that sees it that way is mislead.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Government cannot require a religious activity.

Brendan
Guest

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Religion is Not required. That is made up.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

A requirement to engage in a religious activity (swearing an oath to a deity) is not requiring religion? Really, Brendan? How could anyone possibly reach that conclusion?

Brendan
Guest

Very funny.
Swearing an oath to the country is not a religious activity… nor is swearing to tell the truth

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

That would be true except that in this case, the oath was to “God” and not the country. Again, the oath is to protect the Constitution, not the country. A requirement to participate in a religious exercise – swearing to “God” – is unconstitutional.

TruConserv
Guest

May an American honor some other god than the Judaic/ Christian God of the Old and New Testaments?

If so, the the 1st Commandment is not in play in the USA. If that is true, then the 10 Commandments were not the guidelines used to create the United States.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

You are mistaken, They were the guidance. One extreme is as bad as the other.

Elliot Grove
Guest

“not practicing a religion is not a protected right”
Are you a troll, or do you really have no clue what the 1st amendment does?

The moment you practice christianity, you are free to not practice islam. You just don’t get it…..

Chris Moore
Guest

I already stated, the first amendment is meant to prevent the government from mandating a specific religion. It is not meant to protect individuals from exposure to religion. Simple as that.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Yet… It was WAS meant to keep from FORCING people into or to support a specific religion and that is what tghe “So help me God” does!!!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

It also prevents the government from requiring the practice of religion – such as swearing an oath to a deity.

TruConserv
Guest

We’re not talking exposure, we’re talking Government establishment. If the Government can force you to swear to a God, then the Government has established that God exists.

Elliot Grove
Guest

Exposure? fine, can’t stop that.
Making me swear to god in exchange for a public trust position? Totally in violation of article 6 of the constitution, that Allen West claims he defends.

Faye Vance
Guest

Our founding fathers did this to keep the government from doing what they are doing now. They didn’t realize we would become a pagan and atheist country. They were trying to protect God and country. Now we have people twisting and turning everything around to suit what they want. WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION whether you like it or not.

Nicko Thime
Guest

We are a nation of mostly christian, Not a christian country.

Nicko Thime
Guest

That’s a large pile of bulltwaddle.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Actually you are mistaken… My suggestion to you would be to actually take some time and read documents and letter written by our founding fathers… Of course I seriously doubt that you will do so because you seem to be perfectly happy being a judgmental ignoramus.

Faye Vance
Guest

I don’t have to prove to you how smart I am. You need to read the real documents not the fake ones. Only in the past 30 years have people started to fight against Christianity. I stand by what I said earlier and if you think I’m a judgmental ignoramus, then have at it girl. It does not bother me one bit.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Iskitini alia… I have read letters and papers from Washington, Monroe, Franklin, Jefferson and others that were written before, during and after the writing of the Constitution, Bill of Rights and other Amendments… I bet you don’t even realize that a good portion of our Constitution was based on the Iroquois system of government… No one is “:fighting against Christianity” they simply want the same rights for their own religious or non-religious beliefs that Christians insist on for themselves…

Elliot Grove
Guest

“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” -John Adams; Treaty of Tripoli.

Sorry, no we aren’t. Unless you mean we are a majority christian, then we are also a female nation.

As for “paganism”, easter is a fertility festival based on pagan ritual, the decoration of a “christmas tree” is based on a pagan germanic festival (and mentioned in the bible as something you shouldn’t do: Jeremiah 10:1-10)

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

With all due respect, Sandra, you are as anti-American as any Communist loyal. Either one supports the Constitution or one does not. There can be no inbetween. One of the primary reason for founding this country was relief from state sponsored and required religion.

Chris Moore
Guest

The reason for the first amendment is to prevent a state mandated religion, not to prevent people from being exposed to religion.
There should be no such thing as freedom from religion.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Chris, please actually read The First. It states (paraphrased) that government may not require nor inhibit religion. An individual is free to practice whatever faith one choses and government cannot require any religious test of activity. Requiring a religious oath is unconstitutional.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Why??? A reasonable and logical reason please…

Sandra Goetz
Guest

HAHAHAHA and you sound like you went to the school of Saul Alinsky

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Really, sandra? I am a Constitutional Conservative. I took 3 oaths of military service. I swore on my honor to defend the Constitution against all enemies – both foreign and domestic – an oath with no end date.
You are an enemy of the Constitution.
What’s frightening is that in your religious zealotry and self righteousness you cannot even consider that you might be completely misguided. You are a wonderful candidate for the Ku Klux Klan.
You denigrate me and my service and I take personal offence to that.

Sandra Goetz
Guest

on top of putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Bren Pool Vignaroli
Guest

Kinda makes you wonder how many Christian loving Americans Carl killed in the line of duty…I mean, if he sees YOU as an enemy…he should not have a gun in his hands…ever!

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Now you, you are just a fine piece of sheer and unadulterated ignorance…

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

You are a prime example of why so many have turned against religion. That kind of hateful hyperbole is disgusting – as are you. Anyone who would require a religious test for government service is an enemy of the Constitution.

Sandra Goetz
Guest

I surely said nothing that he should take offense to. But it reminds me of the little girls at the State Dept going after BOR because they didn’t like the words he used.

Bren Pool Vignaroli
Guest

Exactly…also note that if they don’t like Allen West, then why are they here on his website…it would be like us going over to Julian Assange, Dave Silverman, or their favorite man of the week…Ward Churchill’s site to see what’s cook in the land of US haters. Do they think we are too stupid to figure out their game? pffffttt…hell, anyone can play Chinese checkers. If they are looking for a “checkmate” they won’t find one here.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Why are we here… Could it be that we are exercising our 1st Amendment rights??? Why yes, I think that is a distinct probability… And I have seen many of your type all over sites such as you mentioned. Yes, I do believe that you are quite stupid (notice I said stupid not ignorance because ignorance can be cured with a bit of education and stupidity is sadly a permanent condition). From what I have seen of your postings you simply like to talk smack and troll…

Sandra Goetz
Guest

and yet again, you stoop to name calling, which I have not.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

What name did I call you? You clearly stated I had no right to serve my country unless I swore an oath to a god. The implication is that my service is unworthy and I am unpatriotic due to some bizarre personal opinion you hold. Nothing you have said is based in fact yet your self righteousness precludes any objective evaluation on your part. Everything I said is absolutely true.

Elliot Grove
Guest

Then I won’t call names.

“our founding father’s created our government based on the TEN COMMANDMENTS”. This statement is patently and demonstrably false. Why did you make it?

Sandra Goetz
Guest

go watch the video I posted. Because our FF set our government up for free men to govern themselves with less government. How else would you propose that we do that?

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Honey, you need to read some if the actual words our founding fathers wrote… Believe me, few of them were religion based and many went against religious bias of the day and likely the poor men would be turning over in their graves at the ignorance shown by so many of you or laughing their heads of!!!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

We share the ideas put forth in the Ten Commandments but the nation was founded on The Declaration and The constitution.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Constitution

Elliot Grove
Guest

“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” -John Adams; Treaty of Tripoli.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” -1st amendment
“Thou shalt have no other gods before me” -1st commandment

So explain to me how one can say “you can have any god you want” and the other says “you can only have me, this one god” are compatible and we founded the government on it?

Cody Stark
Guest

I love how this attorney thinks she can do what parasite lawyers always do: threaten to ruin your life with “legal action” and “damages” like she can sue a commander for a decision made within the context of the AF regulations. Good luck, idiot.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

How would you feel if the required oath was to Zeus or Satan? Requiring a religious activity is unconstitutional. Period.

Cody Stark
Guest

You obviously missed the point. A military commander can not be sued in civil court for adhering to the established rules and regulations of his branch of service.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

My point was with your exception to an officer of the court defending the Constitution.

Cody Stark
Guest
Threatening to sue an American military commander in civil court for obeying the orders of the officers lawfully appointed above him, which are consistent with the UCMJ and military regulations is not “defending the Constitution.” It’s an opportunistic, self serving, member of the parasitical legal class who offers no productive service – and who’s only talent is the ability to manipulate language, attempting to prey upon real American heroes. Let me clue you in: Defending the Constitution is laying down suppressing fire on Taliban fighters. If you had any experience with that, the distinction would not be lost on you.
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Again, you missed MY point. If you think defending the Constitution is confined to the battlefield, why are you arguing with me here? If you had any experience you would also know not to underestimate your enemy… You know nothing of my experience…

TruConserv
Guest

Happens all the time, but I’m sure you knew that, what with all the time you’ve spent in the stacks, right?

Cody Stark
Guest

You might have to clarify what you mean by “spent in the stacks” – I wasn’t AF so I doubt your referring to what I know that word to mean. Stacking on a door.

TruConserv
Guest

You commented on the law, IIRC. The Stacks are slang, among lawyers, for a law library. Spending time in the Stacks is spending time doing Legal Research.

Cody Stark
Guest

Unsure if your comment was meant to be facetious, I sincerely hope your not a lawyer. As for “happens all the time” I would love to see references where an American commander is personally liable for enforcing the rules and regulations of his branch.

TruConserv
Guest

Use the stacks, go research Military Justice Reporter.

Cody Stark
Guest

Thats not a reference. A link to a specific case would be persuasive, until I see something like that I refuse to believe you can be personally punished for fulfilling your oath of enlistment by obeying the orders of the officers lawfully appointed over you when they are consistent with both UCMJ and established military regulations.

TruConserv
Guest

Read your last sentence, focus on the word “consistent.”

It’s not my job to do your research. There’s value in reading the cases, it’s not a single link, it’s a body of knowledge.

Mark
Guest
Mr. West, As a former member of the US Military, and a commander at that, you of all people should know that this is an outright infringement on religious freedom. Just as forcing non-believers to swear on a Bible in a court of law, what’s the sense in that? Isn’t the idea of the oath to hold that person accountable to the higher power that they believe in? If someone doesn’t believe in God, then it makes no sense for them to be swearing an oath to Him! How would you feel if you were forced to swear an oath… Read more »
Guest
Guest
Everyone knows they are bound to carry out “orders” by this oath, the UCMJ, tradition and expectations of leadership, etc. EXCEPT we are also excused by the UCMJ to not follow orders we consider immoral or unlawful. So, since we are provided an opportunity elsewhere to disregard certain orders we morally or deem unlawful, then should we dispense with the oath entirely? Ridiculous, and these are ridiculous fits of whining by people who are atheists–full grown adults insisting that they must be accommodated in ways that suit only themselves. If one does not follow an order they morally object to,… Read more »
WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

I am not saying get rid of the oath I am saying allow someone to opt out of the GOD portion…

Martin Knutsen
Guest

I assume mr. West does not care about such details.

Grove Peate
Guest

Our Commander in Chief never swore in on a Bible but a copy of the constitution.So it’s refreshing to see the” standup” against these special interests groups.

Paul Sheridan
Guest

Not even remotely true. He took the oath both times on bibles. There are photographs.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Oh, please. That’s irrelevant to the conversation. We are talking about requiring an oath to a deity not allowing one.

Al Hanson
Guest

if you don’t believe, whats the big deal? unless the whole point was some legal bullshit in the first place

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Yes, by all means I want people who are willing to lie to protect me… UGH!!! This country was not founded on CHRISTIANITY and to FORCE people to swear to a GOD they do not believe in is tantamount to the same idiocy of the radical Muslim’s are trying to do!!!!!

Elliot Grove
Guest

If we make it “As there is no god, i promise to defend the constitution and the United States against all foes.”, would you still say “what’s the big deal”?

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Why no simply state “I do so swear” why does it have to be “swear to God”???

Brendan
Guest

Personal integrity.
If I insist you renounce God to get promoted at your job, would that matter?
In your heart, you know what you believe. All you would have to do is swear an oath against your beliefs.
As you said… “What’s the big deal?”

nita dresner
Guest

“deny Me before men and I will deny you”. Oh no, not denying my G_d for anyone, anything,any reason!

Nicko Thime
Guest

I never deny my lucky horseshoe either.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Don’t be silly,nita. No one is denying anything. The issue is forcing a non believer to swear to a deity.

Brendan
Guest

Right.. a person should never be forced to swear against their convictions… that’s my point. Thank you.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

EXACTLY!!!

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Exactly. What’s the big deal to require someone to take an oath to a deity? Really?

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

If it is your deity there is no issue but what if it is not my deity???

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

It was sarcasm. Poorly expressed perhaps but sarcasm none the less.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Indeed… a bit poorly expressed 🙂 But knowing it is sarcasm it does help some…

helbert_mary@yahoo.com
Guest
Well, all I know is, I am a Christian, but if you’re not, that’s not for me to judge. I believe in the constitution, very much. I can’t see how making a person either swear to God, or don’t join the military , is legal. Now, swear to your COUNTRY, I can go with…But it’s just like having a self owned bakery, and being told I HAVE to bake a cake for something I don’t believe in,( for religious reasons. ) Where are the bakers rights ??? To me, it is no different than the government telling me, who I… Read more »
nita dresner
Guest

@[email protected], actually the scenario you used has been tried/or at least I think it was tried. The Bakery refused to bake the cake the couple wanted and were forced to close their door. Which they stated they would rather close it down than be a hypocrite. So now the government is telling you what you can and cannot do within your own business which is essence is the governments business (in how you run it). What is happening to this country? ? ?

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

And yet this self-same baker made cakes for mixed race couples, mixed religion couples AND people who divorced and were remarrying WHILE their ex-spouse was still living… This “devout Christian” who would rather close his doors than be a “hypocrite” was in all actuality a MASSIVE HYPOCRITE!!!

Doug Stubbs
Guest

According to the Merriam-Webster definition, atheism isn’t even a religion. Our Constitution guarantees the freedom OF religion, not FROM religion.

If they don’t like that then they’ll just have to buck up and do what they’re supposed to do until, or if ever, the law changes.

TruConserv
Guest

You do realize that you’re not quoting the US Constitution, don’t you?

Freedom OF religion doesn’t appear anywhere in the US Constitution. No where.

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment reads:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”

Nothing about “Freedom OF religion.”

Just curious, what version of the Constitution did you use that you thought “freedom of religion” was in the text?

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Whether it is in the text or not is a moot point as it was OBVIOUSLY the intention!

TruConserv
Guest

I’m sorry, I may have misunderstood your post – the SCOTUS believes the establishment clause provides freedom of and freedom from.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Yes, you did misunderstand 🙂 The intention of the post was to state that whether or not the Amendments actually state “Freedom of Religion” it was the intention of the 1st Amendment that freedom of and/or from religion be the case… Franklin even writes about Atheism and “Musselmen” in many of his papers as do others of the founding fathers… And they are definitely NOT speaking ill of them… It seems to me that these religious extremists exist on both sides and it saddens me…

TruConserv
Guest

The SCOTUS disagrees.

Elliot Grove
Guest

The moment you chose to be a christian, you chose NOT to be a muslim. You are free to not be a muslim, not be a christian, and not be anything. Freedom of religion starts with freedom FROM religion.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

So you think an oath to a deity should be a requirement for military service? No one said one couldn’t swear by a god, only that it’s unconstitutional to require it. Perhaps you can’t be honorable without external influence but most of us have no such issue.

Doug Stubbs
Guest
Concerning your writing, “No one said one couldn’t swear by a god,” You are adding to the Constitution with this statement. Please read what the 1st Amendment says without adding your interpretation: http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am1.html And I was quite honorable, thank you, prior to becoming a Christian and still am. I can look to my shadow box at my ribbon rack, medals, and other badges and awards earned over 21 yrs of service and can know I was and still am honorable. When people run out of the ability to defend a position, they attack the messenger. So please stick to the… Read more »
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Perhaps you should observe your own counsel concerning assumptions.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Not sure who that is directed at but if me, I see nothing in the Constitution that precludes taking the oath to a deity. The problem arises when it is required by government. My oath is my word and personal integrity and that is entirely sufficient.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

Concerning the personal attack and sticking to the issue, your quote which appears later states, “You’re no better that the
progressives who would deny religion altogether.”

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

That’s actually untrue. You are far worse.

TruConserv
Guest

Actually, it’s a prohibition on the establishment of a religion that matters. If a government makes you swear to a god, then the government has established that there is a god, that there is a religion.

If that uniform is real and not some form of stolen valor, you really should spend some more time learning the Constitution.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

I served over 21 yrs in the AF and saw combat during Enduring Freedom. I’m 100% disabled now because of it. You’re welcome.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Many of us are Vets and many combat Vets. Being a Vet, you should know what the Constitution better than that. Your oath was to support and defend it not make it up as you go. You’re no better that the progressives who would deny religion altogether..

Doug Stubbs
Guest

Actually freedom OF religion DOES appear in the Constitution, in the 1st
Amendment.

Words are VERY important when it comes to law. This is why I point out it does NOT say FROM religion.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

It also does not NOT say pledge/swear to God… a SINGLE God of a SINGLE religion!!

TruConserv
Guest

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

How the heck did you post a link to the First Amendment without even reading it?

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

The First Amendment reads neither, Doug. It actually reads”…prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion…” It means the government may neither require nor preclude religion. If the Air Force were to require one to practice religion by swearing an oath to one of the many gods, it would be in violation of the First. That is, of course, why they no longer have the requirement.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

It’s in it’s title.

TruConserv
Guest
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

(shakes head)

Brian Westley
Guest

Actually freedom OF religion DOES appear in the Constitution, in the 1st Amendment.

No, it doesn’t:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…”

“freedom OF religion” does NOT literally appear in the Constitution

Doug Stubbs
Guest

Except in that troublesome 1st Amendment title:

Amendment 1 – Freedom of Religion

TruConserv
Guest

You idiot. There are no titles in the Bill of Rights. You’re reading extra-constitutional headers used to facilitate studying and Education.

Here’s the text of the Bill of Rights.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

See also

http://austrogirlblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/tbor.gif

How could you be so monumentally ignorant of basic American civics?

Doug Stubbs
Guest
I’d always had in my possession a copy of the Constitution (along with the UCMJ) I carried with me to discern lawful and unlawful orders throughout my military career. My copy has titles for each Amendment. I believed the original did as well. It helped me throughout my career to avoid those who’d have me break the law. Expressing my faith was never a problem as I never pushed it on anyone else. I did offer Bible study and prayer groups for those who wished to join. One’s faith never affected my getting along with them or skewing my judgement… Read more »
WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Hmmm according to Merriam-Webster and idiot is as follows:
id·i·ot noun ˈi-dē-ət
: a very stupid or foolish person

Yes, it also means a person affected with extreme mental retardation but in your case I believe that the proper usage,as he intended its use for you would be the first meaning IE: a very stupid or foolish person especially since the general synonyms are fool, ass, halfwit, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, cretin, moron, imbecile, simpleton… Just to help clarify things.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Actually, you have pushed it in this thread… Maybe you need to look back through your postings..

Doug Stubbs
Guest

If you did your research and looked at the chronological postings, you will see I stated error. What more do you want, my blood, for me to renounce my faith? Those you will not get from me.
You do the research…shoot, just read the comment above your last post.
Get it? Info was provided which has changed my position. So get off me already.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Did I ask for your blood? Did I even hint at you renouncing your faith? The answers would be no which makes your statement quite nonsensical… IF you bother looking you will notice I specifically referred to the religious basis which you do regularly bring up in your postings which to a non-Christian could easily feel like you were pushing it. Also these postings are not always in order so many made to you were prior to said posting.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

doug, please stop. Get a copy of the actual Constitution and read it. There are no titles. Good grief…

Doug Stubbs
Guest

Did you read the above? Yes, good grief. Read the previous comment. I DID go to sites to look at the actual Constitution and admitted error.

You, however, seem to want the last word and after this post you may. Just read the above post first. Good riddance.

TruConserv
Guest

Here’s a partial etymology of the word: “Idiots” were seen as having bad judgment in public and political matters. Over time, the term “idiot” shifted away from its original connotation of selfishness and came to refer to individuals with overall bad judgment.

In contemporary use it means a ordinary person who lacks specialized knowledge.

I’ve had to step back and re-examine my thoughts and writing plenty of times, there’s no shame in it.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

You are not here merely to discuss an issue, but to rather character assassinate.

TruConserv
Guest

No, not really, I was explaining to you what the word means. You thought it meant something else.

I lauded you for stating you were going back to study the Constitution, even adding that I’ve had to do similar things many times. I don’t know it all and readily admit it when I fail.

I seem to have failed here in making you think I was too strong in attacking your position. For that, I apologize.

Brian Westley
Guest

My copy has titles for each Amendment. I believed the original did as well.

The actual bill of rights reads “Article the Third” in front of the text (the first amendment didn’t pass, and the second passed only recently and become the 27th amendment, so our “first” amendment is listed third):

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_zoom_1.html

Really, you should stop digging.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

You’re now attacking my character and should refrain.

A type-written copy was provided to me by my pastor when I first became an NCO in ’86. It also came with his personal study notes on much of the information with Bible references.

Thank you for your understanding.

Brian Westley
Guest

You’re now attacking my character and should refrain.

No, I’m just pointing out over and over that you’re wrong, and you should stop digging yourself in deeper.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

I think it’s time to give this a rest. Really. Please.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

Now it is your turn to stop digging, at my character.

I stated I admit error after looking at several locations of the Constitution on the Internet, a luxury I didn’t have in ’86.

I can see that you’re not just here to discuss an issue. That said, I’ll give you no more satisfaction.

Brian Westley
Guest

Whine harder.

TruConserv
Guest

Thank you for your service.

Now, what’s your excuse for not knowing the Constitution?

Bryan Mayor B Kroelinger
Guest
Bryan Mayor B Kroelinger

You served and became disabled so you could force us to choose a religion, because we are not guaranteed freedom from religion. WOW! Weird definition of FREEDOM!!! Doug, if that’s what you fought and got injured for, sorry, I’m NOT grateful for your sacrifice. You are no better than ISIS or the Taliban.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

For the record, I never raped or killed women, sold them into slavery, nor cut off anyone’s head, cut off noses nor thrown acid in anyone’s face. Sorry, but my duty was with honor.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest
Honestly, while I do thank you for your service I do not appreciate you saying that one does not have freedom to refrain from religion if one wishes to… If you go back into history you will find that many of our founding fathers had no issues with either other religions nor with atheism… The 1796 Treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was “not in any sense founded on the Christian religion” They spoke often of God, (Nature’s God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that… Read more »
Doug Stubbs
Guest

I was defending myself as I was accused of not earning the uniform. It had nothing to do with the premises I presented on the Constitution.

And I don’t care if you don’t accept my sacrifice. My service secured your right to believe that way.

And I’ll say it again, when people run out of the ability to defend a position, they attack the messenger. So please stick to the issue.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

You aren’t the only one, doug. Many of us did so calm down with that one. The issue is with your understanding (or lack there of) of The Constitution.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

I’ll post the same for you as I did to Mr Carl:

Actually freedom OF religion DOES appear in the Constitution, in the 1st
Amendment. OF and FROM mean very different things.

Words are VERY important when it comes to law. This is why I point out it does NOT say or mean FROM religion or it would be in writing.

TruConserv
Guest
Yea, that’s right, except you’re completely wrong. Here’s the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. You will note that NOWHERE in the Amendment does it say “Freedom of Religion.” As such, you can not claim the Amendment does not address “freedom from Religion.” As I wrote, the Amendment is about “establishment.” To help you out, given your concern about… Read more »
WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

HUZZAH!!!

Brian Westley
Guest

I’ll post the same for you as I did to Mr Carl:

And I’ll post my same reply:

No, it doesn’t:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…”

“freedom OF religion” does NOT literally appear in the Constitution

Nicko Thime
Guest

No. But the guy who wrote it spoke for a PERFECT separation of church and state.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

Freedom OF Religion is the title of the 1st Amendment…

Brian Westley
Guest

Freedom OF Religion is the title of the 1st Amendment…

No, the title, if it has any, is Amendment I. It covers religion, speech, press, assembly, and petitioning the government for redress of grievances, so it wouldn’t make sense for the title to be just “Freedom OF Religion”.

You’re in a hole, stop digging.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

Please refer to my reply to TruConserv. Thx.

Brian Westley
Guest

You’re still wrong. You’re welcome.

Underdog
Guest

The existence of God is a given in America. If there is no God, then there is no such thing as an unalienable right, and America does not exist. Also, God is present in both of our founding documents, so our government would be undermining itself to assert that God & religion are not real.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

The founding fathers did not believe in religion and government mixing… PLEASE try reading some of their writings!!!

Underdog
Guest

I recommend you abstain from both reading & asserting an opinion. Your intellect is either clouded by vice (which makes you a perfect sheeple), or you are out of your depth. Our U.S.Declaration of Independence makes clear that freedom is predicated on belief in the Christian God.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest
You are incorrect but then that is typical Christian behavior… The founding fathers of this great nation were for the most parts actually deists… But you will deny that as well even though it is fact… George Washington’s most valued General was homosexual so there goes the argument that may have come about how evil they believed that was… Franklin talks about both Atheism and “Musselmen” IE Muslims respectfully. In almost every single letter, paper and treatise speaks of their belief of state and religion being separate entities… IF as you state the most valued and important papers of this… Read more »
Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

That’s incorrect. Religion and government mixed readily. The evidence is everywhere in D.C. and elsewhere,.What they didn’t want is government dictating religion.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

It was much more than that iskitini alia… I suggest educating yourself by reading the various and numerous writings of out founding fathers…

Bryan Mayor B Kroelinger
Guest
Bryan Mayor B Kroelinger

Underdog, that is such twisted logic and total B.S.

Underdog
Guest

Your rebuttal does not an argument make. Go back to the drawing board.

Bryan Mayor B Kroelinger
Guest
Bryan Mayor B Kroelinger

Wasn’t trying to make an argument. Thought that would have been pretty clear. You can’t argue with the illogical or their illogical points.

Bryan Mayor B Kroelinger
Guest
Bryan Mayor B Kroelinger

Wasn’t trying to make an argument. Your post was so illogical there was nothing to “argue” about. You made no real point, I was just pointing that out. Mostly I did so because I abhor the arrogance of those that assert as fact that which cannot be proven. In other words, you are entitled to your opinion, but not to state them as facts.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

Nonsense. The rights are natural rights.

Underdog
Guest

Consider what natural “rights” are. If all rights come from government (civil rights), then government is god and may give & take rights as it pleases. Natural rights are inherent, meaning that we are born with them. But whence or from whom are they? Not government, but from GOD; thus, no man or government may take them away, even with our consent, because those rights are God-given, I.e., unalienable (aka natural) rights, and what God giveth only God may taketh away.

Carl Collins Jr.
Guest

You are perfectly free to believe that if you choose. The existence of a deity or lack thereof is irrelevant to certain of our rights as outlined in The Bill. Whatever you think is “a given” in America has nothing to do with our system of government. The point is that government can neither require nor preclude religion. Period. Stop. End of conversation. Requiring – REQUIRING – an oath to a deity as a prerequisite – PREREQUISITE – to government service is unconstitutional under Article 6 and the First Amendment.

TruConserv
Guest

Your fight is with the founding fathers, not me. They wrote Art VI and the 1st Amendment.

Underdog
Guest

You deficiency in education is unfortunate. You might consider acquainting yourself with the type of education our Founders enjoyed. There’s this nifty thing called Natural Law, upon which our whole government framework is based, and it collapses without God.

TruConserv
Guest

You have no clue what you are writing about. Natural Law is compatible with religion, including Islam, but does not require the recognition of a God or God head.

“Natural law, or the law of nature is a system of law that is determined by nature, and so is universal. Classically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze human nature — both social and personal — and deduce binding rules of moral behavior from it.”

Your sophomoric understanding of a basic concept is laughable.

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest
They also wrote many other things… Try reading The 1796 Treaty with Tripoli… the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom… Letters to James Smith… Jefferson’s letter to John Adams, Aug. 22, 1813… also April, 11 1823… I could go on for HOURS on writings of the founding fathers… When the Founders wrote the nation’s Constitution, they specified that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” (Article 6, section 3) Those who profess this a “Christian Nation” founded under “Christian Principles” are simply mistaken or so dang prejudicial that… Read more »
Brendan
Guest

Wrong. Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. Americans are free to worship, or not, as they choose.

Doug Stubbs
Guest

Once again, a dictionary will explain to you the difference between ‘of’ and ‘from.’

WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
Guest

Your last name fits you well if you remove the last s and add and ORN…

Brendan
Guest
Again, you are completely misunderstanding freedom of religion as among the choice of religion is to not have religion. And if you want to nitpick the word “of” you need to remember that the actual words “freedom of religion” don’t appear in the Constitution. The text that James Madison wrote reads… “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” He later expanded on its meaning… “Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their… Read more »
Doug Stubbs
Guest
Doug Stubbs