Hobby Lobby case reveals single-payer agenda of liberal SCOTUS judges

The great thing about The Art of War by Sun Tzu is that it trains your mind to get into the decision cycle of your adversary. This is one of the problems the GOP –and indeed conservatives –have as we do ideological battle against liberal progressive socialists.

Exhibit A is the Hobby Lobby case being presented before the US Supreme Court. On its surface, the case is about religious freedom and a government seeking to impose its will regarding the contraceptive mandate of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, Obamacare. Isn’t it just amazing how the only way liberal progressives can enact their “policies” is by force and coercion? Do this or else.

Hobby Lobby Stores and Conestoga Wood Specialties have sued the federal government over the requirement that businesses provide health insurance plans covering contraceptives, including abortion-inducing drugs.

What right does the federal government have to tell a private sector company it MUST provide something — or else face a financial penalty? President Obama and his socialist acolytes are swimming in dangerous waters. It starts here, but where does it end? Tyranny, that’s where.

Here’s what the liberals really want. As reported by CNSNews.com “During oral arguments in the U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday which focused on whether the contraceptive mandate in the Affordable Care Act violates the free exercise of religion, Justices Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan suggested employers who have moral objections to birth control simply shouldn’t provide health care coverage for their employees, saying “Isn’t there another choice nobody talks about, which is paying the tax, which is a lot less than a penalty and a lot less than — than the cost of health insurance at all?”

In layman’s terms, what these two female liberal Justices were saying was, bend to our will or pay the tax — what type of choices are those for a private sector business? And it has nothing to do with “the law of the land.” Just last night Obama and his cronies delayed, changed, altered (yet again) the sign-up deadline, just another one of the many waivers, exemptions, and delays. Obamacare is no longer a law, it is a moving target, an edict commanded from on high.

The true end state of liberal progressives is a single payer system. That’s why Kagan and Sotomayor prefer Hobby Lobby drop its people from insurance coverage and force them onto the government exchanges. As well, the monumental fines that the government would impose — millions of dollars — could prove deadly for the business. The employers at Hobby Lobby want to provide quality healthcare coverage to their employees — but not against their convictions and faith beliefs. Have we come full circle in America where we now punish those who possess a Judeo-Christian faith?

The exchange between Justice Kagan and Paul Clement, representing the plaintiffs, is telling.

“Those employers could choose not to give health insurance and pay not that high a penalty – not that high a tax,” Sotomayor said. Clement said Hobby Lobby would pay more than $500 million per year in penalties, but Kagan disagreed. “There’s one penalty that is if the employer continues to provide health insurance without this part of the coverage, but Hobby Lobby would choose not to provide health insurance at all. And in that case Hobby Lobby would pay $2,000 per employee, which is less than Hobby Lobby probably pays to provide insurance to its employees,” Kagan said. “So there is a choice here. It’s not even a penalty in the language of the statute. It’s a payment or a tax. There’s a choice.” Kagan went on to say that other U.S. businesses are “voluntarily” dropping their health insurance coverage for employees.

It’s clear that Justice Kagan prefers employees get dumped from their employer-based healthcare plans and forced into coverage by Obamacare – and that is how you boost your numbers.

Everything about Obamacare is focused on the goal of creating an American single-payer health system — government run. Obama’s dream is to destroy the private sector insurance industry, just as Dodd-Frank is wreaking havoc on the financial industry (a case where we should have just reinstated the Glass-Steagall Act).

Kagan, who as far as I know has never run a business, displays the arrogance of officialdom warned by Marcus Tulius Cicero. She resides high upon her perch and feels she has the power to make the decisions on what is economically best for a company.

Isn’t it funny how it was during the progressive administration of Franklin Delano Roosevelt that tying healthcare to a job first emerged. Now the liberal progressives want to scrap that and just make everyone subject to government healthcare.

Obama and his former Solicitor General Kagan are offering America and our businesses false choices. It’s not the government’s place to force measures that violate the fundamental right of the individual to freedom of religion and its exercise thereof. What the progressives are seeking to do is actually establish a religion of their own: post-modern liberalism.

The Hobby Lobby case shouldn’t even be a case. Someone should have thrown this out. If the decision goes against Hobby Lobby, there are some very dark days ahead for America.

Lastly, to my fellow Christians, this is what happens when you fail to make a stand, do not exercise your right to vote, and remain politically disengaged. As Plato quipped, “One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” In this case, the penalty is not just the monetary fine but the ever-increasing infringement on your rights by liberal secular progressives.

167 COMMENTS

  1. Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) voted to confirm these 2. Please join my mission to replace him with a principled conservative Nancy Mace! She has signed the pledge to defund, repeal, dismantle Obamacare! Check her out at http://www.nancymace.org. We must Change Washington 2014! Sign up to volunteer and donate, donate, and donate some more. She is the clear choice to restore our country!

  2. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Well Congress made such a law, and the Supreme court allowed it to happen.

    • Exactly why reliance upon the FEDERAL courts to check FEDERAL power is a fool’s errand. The SCOTUS is just a bunch of political appointees; if you believe they fairly judge with impartiality, I have a bridge to sell you…

  3. It’s unconstitutional, and unconscionably tyrannical. It’s play our game or pay, weather you like it or not. Kagen and Sotomayor are party loyalists who are once again reciprocating their supreme court appointments. No shame no honor no justice. We’ll do what we want, when we want to do it.

  4. Actually there’s a third choice. Hobby Lobby could shutter all their stores and leave thousands of former employees without jobs. The scary thing is the liberals would probably prefer that to not bending down to the edict from above.

    • They would probably figure out a penalty for that as well. Prove you did not close to avoid Obamacare or shared burden bs tax, or pay.

  5. Employees of Hobby Lobby knew full well when they were hired what the company’s religious philosophy was. I’m sure they’re not complaining about having Sundays off. If they don’t agree with the company’s beliefs, they should go work somewhere else.

    • I’m also fairly certain that HL employees appreciate the higher than average wages they earn. And, HL’s current insurance plan does cover contraceptives (16 of the 20 “mandated”); it doesn’t cover abortifacients.

  6. We as a people need to reeducate ourselves about rights and what they really are. Once we do, this sort of argument will be null and void as people will understand what the responsibility of government is versus the people’s.

    I believe this book (see link below) to be a primer on Natural Law and our rights. I suggest everyone read and study it.

    http://www.lifeleadership.com/Shopping/tabid/63/ProdID/3033/ln/61336767/language/en-US/Default.aspx

  7. How many “Christians” think that it is something applicable only at church but the rest of the week it is all about being PC and socially acceptable. How many leave religion at the door of the church or even at the front door of their house.
    How many Christians are willing to vote for someon who favors abortion, or supports gay marriage, or is willing to overlook other areas contrary to biblical teachings. How many decide not to vote instead of supporting the lesser of two evils or working on promoting a candidate that they can vote for.

  8. Why is it that none of the lawmakers have bothered to read the Constitution they SWORE to uphold?

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech…”

    So, CONGRESS shall not make a law that prohibits the FREE EXERCISE of one’s religion. HL doesn’t havae to get approval from the courts on HOW they believe & practice what they believe. This law CANNOT trump the Constitution & be valid (legally “germane”) and that’s exactly what it has done. Congress passed a law that now says that HL has to violate their religion to satisfy the ACA. But, the Constitution has guaranteed for over 200 years that Congress CANNOT do that. End of issue. Doesn’t anyone READ the foundational document for our government anymore?

    • Unfortunately many of the Supreme Court Justices believe in the Constitution as a living document, that it’s meaning changes with the times. Unfortunately they forget that it’s a legal document and that in light of the last 240 years of US legal precedent, legal documents meanings can only change with a change in the working.

  9. Sorry Allen, there is no voting ourselves out of this mess. The rule of law is dead, and I’m afraid the time to water the Tree of Liberty is near.

  10. The Hobby Lobby/Conestoga case cited the ( RFRA) Religious Freedom Restoration Act.
    Simply put the Government can impose laws on business. They have done this all the time.
    Wages, Safety, Ethics, ect.
    Hobby Lobby is a for profit business. The owners can be as religious as they wish but that doesn’t allow the business to claim religious freedom.

    Religious freedom also applies to others not being forced into complying with the religion of another.
    Yes I know there is this sentiment that one doesn’t leave their religion on the back burner Mon-Sat. That is true but you still can not force it on others.

    If I were the owners of Hobby Lobby standing up and voicing my religious belief against certain types of Birth Control for my female employees. I would reconsider all the made in China products they have to sell everyday..Knowing that the profits goes to Government mandated abortions.

    • When they hire people they can have them read something related to their beliefs and asking if they are willing to abide with their practices. The person seeking employment can always look some other place for work. If I enter into a business deal fully aware of the other parties beliefs, I am not being forced to convert to Christianity. The employee can still have their religious freedom. However in a Muslim company I might be forced to convert to Muslim in order to be hired.

      • If you applied at a Muslim company and they tried to force you into converting to Muslim before they would hire you than it would be discrimination based on religion which is also illegal.

        As in the case of Hobby Lobby the people are already hired so that question is moot.

      • I’m not sure Hobby Lobby discriminates to the point of being a Christian. They are a company who operates on their Christian belief system. I know that they are closed on Sundays to allow employees time to spend with their families and to attend church. When someone is employed the employers usually explain the insurance policies to new hires. They can choose to accept the company insurance or opt of the plan.

      • Hobby Lobby didn’t ask the employees about this. They filed the law suit stating the Company should be exempt .

        The law states that the health insurance must cover 20 types of birth control. All polices.

        In this sense Hobby Lobby is making a religious choice for all of their employees.

        They are claiming Hobby Lobby is as religious as people are.
        I was taught a Church is a house of God. Churches are tax exempt.
        I don’t believe a Business, A store, can be classified in the same manner as a Church it isn’t right.

      • This is not a religious choice for their employees. The employees can buy these products with their OWN money if they wish. Or opt out of the plan entirely. No one is making choices for them, despite your mindless clamouring that they are.

      • No one is being forced or asked to abide by the religious beliefs held by the Greens, the private owners of this company. The only thing that Hobby Lobby has done is choose not to offer 4 of the 20 approved contraceptive methods because those 4 cause abortions. All other 16 are already offered and available; the remaining 4 are available for private purchase or prescription.

    • At no time has Hobby Lobby told employees that they must abide by the Green’s (the private owners of this private company) religious believes. Hobby Lobby is not imposing their beliefs on anyone; all employees are fully able to believe and practice (or not) religion as they choose. As a private employer they have chosen not to offer devices and drugs that specifically cause abortion, in accordance with their on beliefs. “Plan B”s are available elsewhere if an employee chooses that option.

  11. People that want the birth control …and stuff…can easily opt out of company insurance and go to Obama care. Companies do not control that. Let the people who are happy stay with the company plan. Of Course, they really want everybody on our upcoming National Health Service.

    • The employees can opt out. But they didn’t bring the lawsuit.
      Hobby lobby can opt out as well. The Judge told them it would result in less cost to just pay to do that. Hobby Lobby’s response, “Then no one would want to work for us.”
      I don’t believe that to be true. I heard people like working there, they are a good company to work for.

      But I still don’t believe that a business can claim religious freedom.

      • The business isn’t claiming religious freedom. It’s semantics, but it’s a private employer claiming the right to operate his business as he believes (according to the religious strictures he believes).

      • Of course wildly liberal judges such as Kagan and Sotomayor would make those statements. But those things are NOT happening, are they? Nice deflection however.

      • All the Justices have to consider what could happen . As I stated above Kennedy asked about Burkas.

      • You keep say birth-control when in fact it is the ones that cause a fetus to be aborted or a fertilized egg that they oppose. Which is why Justice Kennedy asked . Using the Governments argument people could be required to provide abortions. It shows how he is thinking. But everyone was thrown off with Roberts, who has put us here and now.

      • The birth control works the same way as the rest. The difference in the way they really work is not even discussed in Court.
        Hobby Lobby would lose for sure.

    • Hobby Lobby IS PROVIDING contraception. What they have specifically opted out of are devices and drugs that cause abortions (IUDs and abortifacients, i.e. products that kill fetuses after conception). All other forms of contraception are currently being provided by the the plans offered by Hobby Lobby and are not being contested.

  12. The justices were appointed to follow the Constitution, not to follow an agenda of a liberal President and lawmakers. When justices begin to suggest making law from the bench, it’s time to exercise the people’s right to impeachment & removal of said justices.

      • AMENDMENT I

        Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

        What Freedom From Religion Is

        When it comes to politics, the freedom from religion means being “free from” any government imposition of religion. Freedom from religion does not mean being free from seeing churches, but it does mean being free from churches getting governing financing; it doesn’t mean being free from encountering people handing out religious tracts on a street corner, but it does mean being free from government-sponsored religious tracts; it doesn’t mean being free from hearing religious discussions at work, but it does mean being free from religion being a condition of employment, hiring, firing, or one’s status in the political community.(cornell ed.)

      • This is not about the 1st amendment. It is about interfering with the way an enterprise chooses to conduct their business. Why in the USA does the government get to have a say in this. They should not be able to enforce a law upon a business that violates their ability to make decisions for their business based on their beliefs. No one forces people to work for a certain company. If they don’t agree with the company policies, go work somewhere else! This is a no brainer but when government gets involved, it is unfortunately a sad day for America.

      • It is about the RFRA amendment to the 1st amendment.

        Business must follow the laws. No one is questioning that.
        These 2 Business are asking for a religious exception to a law. When that Business goes to it’s knees in prayer I will be all for it.
        Until then I am not.

      • These are both closely held businesses – which is a factor in this case. The owners are essentially the corporation. Thus, we are talking about their religious freedom. Saying the business should go down on its knees is just an attempt to direct attention to the fact that the business IS its employees and owners – many of whom DO go down on their knees in prayer.

      • The business is the employees and owners just like you said.

        The owners can not decide the religious practices for their employees.
        What if the business owners faith did not believe in Drs at all?
        What if they don’t believe in blood transfusions?

        What if next month they convert to Seventh Day Adventists who don’t work fri to sat night and The rest of the Christians still go to Church on Sunday which is why they wanted to work there in the first place?

        It is fine to have personal religious beliefs , in fact I recommend them but you can’t decide for groups of people, especially when they work for you. That is discrimination.

      • You really cannot be this dense, can you? The business belongs to the owners. They decide how it operates, NOT the employees, NOT the government. If someone doesn’t care for this, they can leave. It’s a free country. That we’ve heard no reports of mass retirement from these two companies would seem to say that the employees are ok with the owners’ stand. I’m sure you have a problem with that however, don’t you?
        Each of the questions in your second paragraph show a profound misunderstanding of the issue, if not a very low IQ on your part.
        The owners are not deciding their employees’ religious practices. That’s not even an issue here, so I won’t bother addressing it.
        Your second question is just stupid beyond belief – I’m unaware of any faith that does not believe in doctors. Your third one is inane and again, it’s not blood transfusions that are at issue, is it? It’s birth control. Do try to keep the issues straight, please?
        Your definition of discrimination is wrong. And again, the owners are not deciding for their employees. Their employees can buy whatever they want, but the owners have the right to choose what THEIR money buys, and that is the right they are exerting here.
        And yup, I can just see them converting to 7th Day Adventists to screw up everyone here. You know something? Most religious accept the world for what it is, including having to work on Sundays even if they’re Christian. We recognize that much of what happens is out of our control.
        However, on some issues, people of faith won’t back down. This is one of them – these people do NOT want their money going to fund abortifacient – birth control pills that cause abortion. This is a principled stand and while I realize you may not agree, nor like it – IT’S NONE OF YOUR GD BUSINESS how they choose to spend their money, or NOT spend their money. It’s their business. The sooner people like you, and this president, get that through your thick skulls and tiny minds, the better off your country will be.

      • First of all your comment lost all credibility when you inserted a vile profanity in caps.

        Second of all every thing I stated was also questions the Justices are going to consider before they make their decision.

        Any business such as this must have a Sales License They must also have a merchant tax number. They must also abide by Workman Comp. laws, safety regulations. Wage regulations and the products they sell must meet consumer safety regulations. Candy and drinks must conform to label laws, and Labor laws plus EEOC laws must also be followed.

        Just because you lack the knowledge of religions that do not believe in Drs. .you should instead of questioning someone who knows more about this than you , educate yourself.

        I have followed this case from the beginning , I have read the brief. I also am aware there were 4 cases of this type and the Court decided to hear 2 and the specifics that caused them to decide to do so.
        Bottom line is they are approaching the
        Court stating their Business has religious belief. The lower Court has already decided that a Business does not practice religion.
        AS for the blood transfusions, yes one Justice stated that.
        Justice Kennedy’s statement that correlates I will just post, as I copied it from the Supreme Courts web page.
        Pay particular attention to the fact he used the example of a Burka.

        “Toward the end of Clement’s time, Kennedy posed a different type of query:

        JUSTICE KENNEDY: Just before your time s
        tarts to go too fast, how would you suggest that we think about the position and the rights of the ­­ of the employees? And you can have hypotheticals about the employer makes them wants to make them wear burkas and so forth. That’s not in this case.

        But in ­­ in a way, the employees are in a position where the government, through its healthcare plans, is ­­ is, under your view, is ­­ is allowing the employer to put the employee in a disadvantageous position. The employee may not agree with these religious ­­ religious beliefs of the employer. Does the religious beliefs just trump? Is that the way it works?”

      • I was hoping to make the point – it’s not YOUR business, nor should it be the governments. Seems neither of you get that point. And the caps – if they cause anything I said to lose credibility with you, it’s because you don’t want to listen to what is clearly obvious.
        The First Amendment states that the government “Shall make no law…” impeding the free exercise of religion,…”.
        To put it simply, they are prohibited from doing what they are attempting now to do. This law CLEARLY impedes the First Amendment right of the owners to the free exercise of their religion. Period. Of course, SCOTUS could care less about the constitution. It restricts them from generating judge made laws.
        I notice that you don’t tell us what religion doesn’t believe in doctors, just infer I’m not too bright for never having heard of it. Is this too big a secret for us to know, or are you just making it up?
        This case is not, or should not be, about the rights of the employees, because their rights are not being infringed upon. They can purchase the four abortifacients that are at issue if they so wish. No one is stopping them, no one at all. However, the government seems quite willing to force the owners to operate THEIR business in a manner that, I repeat, interferes with their first amendment rights.
        How is the employee disadvantaged? Because they might have to purchase an abortifacient? OH MY GOD, call out the National Guard, call out the troops, call out all the bleeding heart lefties. This is a crisis.
        You wouldn’t force an atheist to purchase a Bible for someone, would you? No, you wouldn’t, it violates the atheist’s beliefs. So why do you feel justified in forcing these people to violate theirs?

      • You can not make the point that this is none of my business. You don’t know me so it would be impossible to judge the extent of my vested interest in this case .

        I have read everything you stated and you theory is incorrect.
        The Government is allowed to produce legislation to any consumer product, for the benefit of the public.

        This Case is not hinging on what the employees can and can’t do on their own. Plan B is now sold in stores over the counter. It doesn’t matter that it can be bought else where.

        The Case also doesn’t hing on what how these 4 birth control methods medically prevent pregnancy . They work the same way as birth control pills. They create a hostile environment
        so the egg doesn’t attach to the uterine wall.
        I suggest you look that up before you try to discount my statement.
        This dose not matter with this case either.
        The case is not validating the owners belief.

        The case is why should Hobby Lobby be allowed to ignore 4 types of birth control that all insurance providers must include in their policy under law.

        Insurance policies are a package deal.
        The government has regulations for the minimum coverage they can provide. It is not much different than labeling laws.

        The owners can practice all the religion they wan’t. If they don’t want to use these types of Birth Control then don’t.

        But they can not claim religious freedom from the law based on the general society.

        I copied the following from Faith Healing:Religious Healing vs child protection . org

        “Faith healing is widely practiced by Christian Scientists, Pentecostalists, the Church of the First Born, the Followers of Christ, and myriad smaller sects. Many of these believers reject all medical treatment in favor of prayer, anointing with oils, and sometimes exorcisms. Some even deny the reality of illness. When they reject medical treatment for their children, they may be guilty of negligence and homicide. Until recently, religious shield laws have protected them from prosecution; but the laws are changing, as are public attitudes. Freedom of religion has come into conflict with the duty of society to protect children. The right to believe does not extend to the right to endanger the lives of children.”

      • Canuck, you can’t beat a dead horse… this one is very dense and can’t seem to put two and two together. You can show her all the logic out there and still she can’t connect it.. Had my rounds with her on another issue.. The light is very dull with this one. But good luck if you wish to continue… sometimes God works in mysterious ways and perhaps something just might get through that dense fog ….

      • You really are delusional if you think for a second that they are trying to tell their employees they have to do this or that. No where do they say they have to be Christian and follow a certain religious practice. They are not forcing them to work for them either. They have certain standards they go by and that if you, by your choice want to work for them, can do so. They do not tell you that you cannot go out and get these items yourself that is your personal business they do NOT infringe on them by watching what you do in your bedroom etc.

        You have to be a complete idiot to believe what you just said.

      • I just copied it from Cornell law. But I suppose your law degree came from a more prestigious University?

      • No degree,, just commonsense which most libs sorely lack,,,even the ones that think having a law degree from their so-called prestigious university means anything. Don’t impress me much. When commonsense tells you that someone crying about choices they make should be paid for by someone else is wrong no matter if you have a degree or not. But sadly the intellectuals think they know what is right for us all and throw any commonsense out the window,,as libs do.

      • The Justices must base their decision on the written laws.
        It doesn’t matter who thinks others have or lack common sense.
        Common sense would be like knowing that Hobby Lobby is not paying for others birth control, it is part of an employee benefit package that they must purchase from an insurance provider that is required by oversight laws to offer 20 specific birth control.

        There are laws that sets standards for many things.
        The only reason this is different is because it is being made out to be.

      • The written laws means nothing to them. Their King does not have to follow written laws and he nominated them to the SCOTUS to do as they are told,written laws be damned. The ACA law has been changed by the King how many times now? Mostly for the benefit of the donors that put him on the throne and to the elitists.

      • Hi Darla; I believe I heard a while back: (Not the exact words) Hobby Lobby is a Christian Business and when they hire, the employee knows where they stand on their beliefs and agree to it. Basically, if Hobby Lobby disagrees with a couple of Prescriptions on obama care, the employee agreed when they went to work for Hobby Lobby.

      • Hi Reba,
        The difference here is that the health care law set guidelines for what health policies has to cover.

        Hobby lobby purchases the policy as part of a benefit it offers employees. I know everyone thinks they are paying for it, but even that is not true. The employees pay for at least half for their coverage.

        The issue is still what the owners believe , shouldn’t dictate what their employees must.

        I know that Hobby Lobby is a Christian Owned Business. I have shopped there often.

        But even though employees know this about them, everyone also knows they can not impose their religion on the workers. You can not discriminate based on religion .
        And nothing is going to have me say a Business is the same as a Church.

      • I look at it like when I went to work. Their Rules, Insurance and other things, is dictated by them. So, if I want to work for them, I
        agree or don’t work for them. I don’t think it’s any different. Hobby Lobby provides Insurance and the employee pays a portion just like the other companies. I could take it or leave it, my choice.

      • That is the problem here, the employees can not just take it or leave it.
        Hobby lobby can not just find another provider who doesn’t cover all 20 of these birth control because the law states they must all cover them.
        In a way it is almost like Hobby Lobby is not allowed to sell toys that is painted with lead paint.The Government sets standards//regulations . The sticking point here is that Hobby Lobby doesn’t sell the health care plans. It is a third party who have to abide by their own standards the Government sets.
        Even when a person obtains a policy through their employer they still sign the policy by the actual provider, like Blue Cross/Shield.
        Lawsuits or actually the laws are so very specific. I have seen a case won by one word in the writing.
        The main thing that is important about Hobby Lobby is they filed as Hobby Lobby. They didn’t sign as the owners (the other company did).
        There for the Court will rule on this as Hobby Lobby. Not the owners.

        They are not going to rule on this until June. It will be interesting but I think it is going to be a very slim chance they are going to win. If they should it will be because the combined case did file as a person.

      • Basically what you are saying is that you made an agreement with them that you will follow their guidelines as to how they run their company. Similar to signing a contract if it were brought down to that description. So I agree with what you are saying here. Darla doesnt seem to understand simple contract laws either, but she seems to be a sidearm lawyer. What she fails to see is that this “law” that Obama created isn’t really a law yet either as it was never taken back to the congress to vote on, it was just signed into law because he has a Pen and a Phone and he will use it at his discretion, as he has been every time he gives another waiver or pushes back the deadline…

        The other point is what Darla seems to turn a blind eye too.. she does this a lot if you have ever read any of her other posts… is that Hobby Lobby offers plenty of BC options for their employees, its just the ones that cause the death of an unborn child that Hobby Lobby has a problem with. But yes in her mind, that’s OK because its the morning after pill thus keeps the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Thereby causing a “miscarriage” so to speak.

        But then dear Darla says in another silly post “The employees do not have a say in this case. What they want does not matter.” Wait what? So the people basically do not have a say in what the government does? … this goes to show what she really knows about America…

      • The Supreme Count, who (Justice Roberts made changes in the bill), is the Law. They forget that obama has been changing the Health Care Bill since it came out and that is not Law, because he bypasses Congress. Yet, all these companies keep following the changes he makes. So I can understand why it’s confusing to people. Now, all of the Policies are supposed to be the same and the choice has been taken away. I can understand why Hobby Lobby is fighting this and anyone else that does not believe in this part of the plan, because they can’t say, I do not want this because of our beliefs. Health care changes could have been very simple, but that was not their intentions from the beginning.

      • In my opinion, the “law” or ACA should be retracted out of law since Obama keeps changing it to fit his agenda or to suit different groups. Its not clear nor concise at all and no one knows what the hell its all about. And that it excludes certain members of government and other groups… really its just plain stupid and should have never been forced on the people.

      • Health Law should be killed and done right. They could have made changes without destroying our Health Care. Oops, they did what they intended to do.

      • I agree, it seems it was so that the insurance companies could make a huge gain from the dropping of policies then reactivating them or such. People are paying higher premiums now thanks to this scam, I know we are paying double what we were paying and our out of pocket/deductibles have tripled, with less coverage.

      • But my law degree does come from one … and NO where does it state Freedom “FROM” Religion, it states… “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
        prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
        speech, or of the press; or of the right of the people peaceably to
        assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

        Meaning that the government has no right to establish a Church run by the government such as the “Church of the United States” such as there is one in England. One of the reasons we fled that country and established our own constitution.

      • It is Freedom of Religion. The protects the people to be able to practice a religion without the government interfering. Key, the practices cannot violate the law. For example, you cannot kill people in the name of your religion. It was put in place so the government cannot tell us that we all have to be Catholic or that NONE of us can hang a cross in our offices at work or in our family owned dinner. In China, you cannot openly be a Christian.
        We don’t want to be forced to practice a government chosen religion nor do we want to be kicked out of school for reading our Bible. Nor do I want to pay the premiums via tax revenue support subsidized premiums–that support someone taking a pill that aborts a fetus or for abortions. Indirectly the federal government is using taxes to pay fund abortions. So I feel that I should not be forced to pay for the slaughter and for the abortions via a pill. It is against my spiritual beliefs as well as my values of human life.

      • “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;’

        Respecting an establishment of religion. So Hobby Lobby’s established religion of Christianity entitles them to receive special laws?

      • Again oh bright one, they are not asking for any special law… see other posts about this… And we were talking about your choice of words, where the constitution does not guarantee Freedom FROM Religion but Freedom OF Religion… two very different things.

        Hobby Lobby is not asking for any special laws… again read the other posts…

  13. That why Obama can say look, all these people are signing up for healthcare , then soaking them with outrageousness premiums and on top they get the tax from the employer, win win for the insurance companies and the King .

  14. As soon as these two leftists made that suggestion they should have been ushered out if the courtroom in handcuffs. They hate America.

  15. …and by paying the $2,000 fine or tax, or whatever you want to call it, Hobby Lobby is forced to provide the very services that they are declining to pay for.

  16. The position that there is still a choice is a false one. When one agrees to pay the tax penalty, they are admitting to breaking the “law of the land” and as such what future rights has Hobby Lobby (in this case) given up? The tax/penalty is only the beginning. perhaps the government could say they now control some other part of your business, because you are an admitted law breaker. It would be the next logical progressive incremental step.

  17. LTC West is a real American Hero, after serving his country honorably as a Warrior he choses to continue the fight and openly battle the Tyranny and Corruption of this Great Nation! I’m sure making hisself a target of certain groups which could cause him personal hardships! Thank you and I Salute you as a Great leader in the plight to return our Rights and Freedoms to us, God Bless America!

  18. LTC West is right…. get out there and vote. We will need every conservative & Christian vote in the next two elections (including this year for Representatives and Senators) in order to compete with the liberal vote which will include many illegal aliens (yes I said it, illegal aliens). Yes they are undocumented (meaning they don’t pay taxes, they just file returns and get huge sums back), and yes they are workers (meaning they are taking jobs from Americans).
    Get out there and vote. It is the obligation of American Citizens. If we don’t vote, start learning Spanish, or Chinese, because thats what we will have to do in order buy food.

  19. “What right does the federal government have to tell a private sector company it MUST provide something — or else face a financial penalty?” Really? Consider air bags, Medicare contributions, and workplace safety equipment. And here Kagen offers a legitimate option.

    • None of those things would be contrary to one’s religious freedom, which is what this article is about.

      Not really. She’s basically telling Hobby Lobby to pull a major benefit from its employees, pay the government for the right to do so, and let the employees fend for themselves. To a company that cares about its employees, that’s not a very good option.

      • I am exempt from the requirement that my car has air bags.
        If I owned a taxi business could I use that same exemption for all the cars that my employees drive?

        The focus here is on the Fact it is a religious reason they are claiming, But not all Religions believe the same way.
        It is my personal religion that I don’t engage in activity that has a high chance of killing me. So air bags are against my religion.

        Do I have the right to extend this exception to all the cars my business owns?

      • “It is my personal religion that I don’t engage in activity that has a
        high chance of killing me. So air bags are against my religion.”
        You do know that Hobby Lobby isn’t against contraceptives in general, right? They’re against 4 of the 20 FDA approved contraceptives because they’re supposedly capable of aborting a child. If they win this case, they won’t be denying coverage for contraceptives, just for those particular contraceptives, which their employees will still be able to buy themselves if they really want them. Your airbag example isn’t at all comparable.

      • I am aware of what the Case is about, I listened to it.
        I also read the transcript of the previous 10th Circuit hearing, plus the en blanc panel which is responsible for this case moving to the Supreme Court last year.

        My air bag example is comparable.

      • Not at all. In your example, you were removing a safety measure altogether because you believed you didn’t need it. Hobby Lobby wants to cover 80% of available contraceptives, not ban them completely. What’s more, air bags directly relate to the work employees do in a taxi business, whereas contraceptives have nothing to do with work at Hobby Lobby. Finally, the belief that abortion (which Hobby Lobby thinks the drugs could cause) is wrong is generally the belief that abortion is murder. Removing something because you believe it unnecessary and removing something because you believe it constitutes murder are far from comparable motives.

      • I removed the device because medically proven results are that air bags are a danger to person’s under 5′ 2″.
        The air bags can kill a person under this height by suffocation.
        Seat belts are safer for me.
        The air bags are required by law. They required them because the general population are safer with air bags .

        I couldn’t remove them legally based on my belief I don’t need them.

        Rather I would have to have a valid exemption (which is my height) to allow me to not follow the law that every one has to follow.

        Exact same case.

      • That’s a personal case, and would not apply to a company with various people of various heights. Even if driving was made safer for you, it would be more dangerous for most (based on average heights in America).

        And again, airbags are directly related to a taxi business. Contraceptives are in no way related to work at Hobby Lobby.

      • You may want to rethink that. A lack of Contraceptives can result in a woman becoming pregnant. Surely I do not need to explain how that is related to a woman’s job.

      • Even assuming that pregnancy can be considered related to the job, Hobby Lobby isn’t denying coverage for contraceptives. I’d contend, however, that it isn’t directly related in the first place. It’s something personal. While becoming pregnant could certainly affect an employee’s work, so could their fitness level, diet, financial status, marital status, etc. All of those things could affect a person’s morale and/or ability, but all of them are personal, and unrelated to the actual job.

        Are you saying that only the 4 contraceptives Hobby Lobby wouldn’t cover (only 20% of all approved contraceptives) could be used by those women? Or that those women shouldn’t use contraceptives at all?

      • An IUD which also costs hundreds of dollars are the best effective choice for women who can not take the the pill. Due to the hormones.

        When birth control pills were introduced , many Churches were against them. They were restricted to married Women.
        Insurance had special sections for pregnancy and until the 70s women were “let go’ from work at six months.

        Besides that is Hobby Lobby is so religiously opposed to these 4 contraceptives , why did their insurance prior to Obama care provide coverage for them?
        Why are they still heavily invested in Pzifer? and Other pharmaceutical companies that make actual abortion pills?
        2 insurance companies they invest in actually cover abortions?
        And they own a business in China which means they pay the Government who forces and pays for Women’s abortions?

        I guess religion doesn’t stand a chance against the mighty dollar.

      • Is that not covered by health care? If not, is that a problem with Hobby Lobby specifically or health care in general?

        There was a lack of understanding at the time. Many thought contraceptives were simply an enabler for sex out of marriage, which Christianity is against. Pregnant women being let go is unrelated to what Hobby Lobby is fighting for.

        Perhaps they didn’t know they were covering them, or didn’t know what they could do, until Obamacare brought it to the surface? If not that, then I don’t know.

        My guess would be that someone makes investments for them. Aside from that, though, investments aren’t generally made in support of everything the company does. Otherwise everyone who has investments in Apple would approve of the terrible working conditions they’ve used in China.

        That point is simply ridiculous. Do you support every policy in the Middle East by filling your car with gas? How about the Chinese parts in your electronics? Do they mean you support censorship? As with investments, dealings with other countries don’t equate to support for everything that happens in those countries.

      • I mentioned women being let go from their jobs in the past for the same reason I mentioned that Drs only prescribed it for married woman.

        Yes it was the Christian Belief. We can’t make laws from the standpoint of Christians. We can not forget not all people in the Country are Christians. Some have no Religion, Some are various Religions. Again Catholics do not believe in any Birth Control. Some Religions do not believe in medicine.

        As for someone else making investments? There are programs to specify what a company is investing in.
        They are aware of where their money is going.

        Besides that, another party is also providing the insurance.
        They pay the other party, and if a woman uses one of these types BC. the insurance company pays for it.

        Do I support every policy when I purchase something?
        Probably. Do I agree with them? I am not sure.
        There is one that I do not agree with and that is the working conditions in Bangladesh clothing factories.

        I don’t buy clothes from there. I also do not invest in them.
        If I owned a business I wouldn’t sell them.

        Since I pay my employees do I have a right to demand that they don’t wear these clothes? Or shop at other stores that sells them?

      • I agree. The government should make no laws establishing religion. That said, Hobby Lobby is fighting for their own religious freedom, not the federal establishment of their religion.

        While religions can be against various things, most of those things only apply to the believer. Someone who doesn’t believe in the use of medicine, for example, is only against using medicine themselves. They don’t care what nonbelievers do. Abortion, which is what Hobby Lobby is against here, is not a personal issue, per se. While it may be their personal belief, it’s a belief that applies to everyone. Because they think abortion is murder, they don’t want anyone to have one, and they certainly don’t want to pay for coverage of what they believe to be murder.

        Again, even if they’re aware of where their money is being invested, that doesn’t mean they support what the company they’re investing in does. If it did, most people could not comfortably invest in most major companies.

        The difference between insurance and investments is that they are actually paying for the insurance to do what it does. If it allows for abortive drugs, they’d be paying for that coverage themselves.

        You’d have no such right, of course, but that’s not the sort of right Hobby Lobby is fighting for. They are not trying to ban their employees from buying the contraceptives or seeking health care elsewhere. They simply wouldn’t be offering the drugs themselves. Such a right would not infringe on their employees’ freedoms.

      • “The difference between insurance and investments is that they are actually paying for the insurance to do what it does. If it allows for abortive drugs, they’d be paying for that coverage themselves.”

        Investing in a company is paying them to do what they do.
        It is no different.
        There are only 2 health care providers that cover abortion. Hobby Lobby invests with them.
        Hobby Lobby pays into them with a matched contribution from their profits.

        This case is 2 years old. They have had plenty of time to stop investing in these companies. I had the option to change mine every 6 months.

      • This one is from Wisconsin, All States have this law.
        The device listed is Air Bags in non legal terms.

        347.417  Immobilization device tampering.

        (1) No person may remove, disconnect, tamper with, or otherwise circumvent the operation of any immobilization device installed in response to a court order under s. 346.65 (6), 1999 stats., or s. 343.301 (2), 2007 stats. This subsection does not apply to the removal of an immobilization device pursuant to a court order or to necessary repairs to a malfunctioning immobilization device.

        (2) The department shall design a warning label which shall be affixed by the owner of each immobilization device before the device is used to immobilize any motor vehicle under s. 346.65 (6), 1999 stats., or s. 343.301 (2), 2007 stats. The label shall provide notice of the penalties for removing, disconnecting, tampering with, or otherwise circumventing the operation of the immobilization device.

        History: 1991 a. 277; 1999 a. 109; 2001 a. 16 ss. 3445h to 3445m, 4060hg, 4060hj, 4060hw, 4060hy; 2009 a. 100.

    • On a personal level you can claim religious freedom , I know of Christians who don’t believe in Drs. , Amish do not pay taxes. But you can’t make the choice for others.

      • It would be no different if the barber were white who refused to give a black a haircut.
        What if the barber were an atheist and the patron had a cross tatoo?
        This is how the Courts look at this.
        You are asking for Christians to receive special treatment. To ignore a law .
        The Courts can not allow this to happen.

      • As far as this goes, you really are pretty dense… The
        point of this post was to see in which direction the government will go on this issue, since both are special rights groups, one the Muslims and the other LGBT. Either way the government will have one tough battle in the courts.

        As far as asking for Christians to receive special treatment, lol what do you think Muslims are asking when they want to wear their Burka to cover their faces when taking photos for ID’s. Tell me smart one, what special treatment is Hobby Lobbying asking for? The president and his family are exempt from the ACA. Congress and Senate are exempt and several others are exempt, so what are you talking about special treatment? All Hobby Lobby is asking is that they are not forced to provide a pill that will kill an unborn baby whether it is just conceived or a couple days old. That has to do with the human life, not getting your hair cut silly one.

  20. Can they recuse themselves for this case???? It seems like a horrible case of conflict of interest. They both have proved that they can not be impartial since they were placed on the Bench.

    • The Judges can not be impartial because they won’t allow a Business to decide which types of birth control their employees should or should not use based on the opinion of the Business owners?

      • Hobby Lobby should just shut their doors. Close it down. Leave this country and take their wealth with them. Go to Beliz. Start a company there. Create new jobs there. The people will appreciate the work.

      • how sad it is that I completely agree with you. This is what it will take for liberal America to wake up. Even then I’m not so sure the zombies will wake up.

      • Sorry, liberals are delusional they will never admit they are wrong; they will call you names an attack you rather than admit the simplest truth that calls their beliefs into question.

      • I cant agree more with you than this. Though I am against them shutting it down because of how many Americans will lose their jobs but when you are faced by this sort of tyranny you have no choice. This is the plan of this administration in the first place, to destroy this country from the inside out, and to destroy anything that is Christian based.

  21. What they are saying is that if you want to follow your religious values, the government can penalize you. And that’s ok.

    What about the idea that people can be forced to give away things for free? Isn’t that the more pertinent issue? Not that the the religious conscience issue is unimportant.

    • Freedom of religion means that the government does not interfere or persecute you for practicing your religion. They could had made a law that said they cannot deny covering pre-exiting conditions or genectic birth issues without the huge mess Obamacare. It is not affordable and the only group that benefits is the insurance company. Poor people have medicaid.

  22. Corporations are not people. Corporations don’t go to church. Corporations don’t have religious freedoms, so no beliefs are being violated. The Affordable Care Act defines minimum insurance coverage required to use the tax breaks afforded employee provided health insurance. Simple tax law. If the owners of the Hobby Lobby Corporation want to dissolve the corporation and own the business privately as a partnership or other form where they are responsible for all debts (they aren’t right now) and receive all profits I might have some sympathy for their argument, but not that much. I know quite a few women who take the pill for medical reasons, not to prevent pregnancy. Now it looks like Hobby Lobby wants to determine what health care treatments are acceptable instead of the physician and patients. The whole article is full of legal flaws, omissions, and slanted analysis. (A friend posted this link on his facebook)

    • The owners of Hobby Lobby should have the right to practice their religion. Obamacare is socialism. It is another step towards a government enslaving the people. You never want the government to be in control of the people. You want the people to stay in control of the government. I am so tired of paying for everyone to have and paying for my way in life too.

      • The owners are allowed to practice their religion.
        They have Bible verses on the wall.
        They play Christian music.
        They do not however have the right to ignore a law affecting others due to their religion.

      • Just like Kagan should have recused herself on Obamacare, and this case since she worked on the ACA before becoming a Justice. She has a clear conflict as she is personally invested in the ACA…

    • They are not against the pill.They are against the ones that cause a fetus to be aborted after the fact. I believe there are 4 . You need to get informed.

      • You believe there are 4? There are 4 they object to and they do not cause a fetus to be aborted.
        They prevent the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall. Which is the same thing that birth control pills do.

      • Darla, could you please attach the link to the case filings where you found this. Or is this your assumption?

      • I actually did look this up but it was months ago. I will see if I can find it.
        It really doesn’t matter in this case though that is not the issue.

      • I posted the information from a pro life site and they wouldn’t allow it here. So I will look for another one.

      • 1. What is Plan B One-Step?

        Plan B One-Step is an emergency contraceptive pill taken by mouth after unprotected sex. It is used to prevent pregnancy. It is not for routine contraceptive use and does not prevent against sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.

        2. How is Plan B One-Step taken?

        Plan B One-Step should be taken within 72 hours of unprotected intercourse. When taken within 72 hours, it decreases the chance of getting pregnant by 89%.

        It’s even more effective when taken within 24 hours. Effectiveness decreases the longer a woman waits to take it.

        3. Who may buy Plan B One-Step?

        Plan B One-Step can be purchased over the counter by anyone. There’s no need to have a prescription or show proof of age.

        4. What is Plan B One-Step’s active ingredient?

        Each pill contains levonorgestrel, a synthetic version of the hormone progestin. Levonorgestrel has been used in birth control pills for over 35 years. Plan B One-Step contains a higher dose of levonorgestrel than that in regular birth control pills.

      • The same Supreme Court that determined this law constitutional under the guise of taxation is the same one that has repeatedly supported the idea of corporate personhood. The people who got together and formed a corporation for a common cause should not be asked to absolve their constitutional rights simply due to organization.

        If this were the case, then religious organizations would have zero rights in the eyes of the law, as they would not be considered a person, and would have no entity in the legal system; no lawsuits, no right to free speech, no right to demonstrate, etc.

        You may have the belief that this is wrong, but it is currently accepted precedent in the eyes of the courts.

      • I don’t believe in Corporate person hood

        This would not effect Religious entities due to the RFRC. They are already protected. .

      • I know , and currently that is the way it is , but laws can be amended.

        It is not the deciding factor with Hobby Lobby they are specific on the RFRC.

    • Hobby Lobby starts their employees at twice the minimum wage, and they can’t afford the $11 a month for the pill? Besides, it’s only 4 of the 20 “birth contol” pills that they do not want to cover. Those 4 are for “after conception”, ie, the morning after pill. They are not against the other 16 pregnancy prevention pills. You obviously don’t know much about this case, as most others of your ilk don’t, but simply repeat what you’ve heard on the state media.

      • The case has nothing to do with what the employees can or
        can not afford.
        The case is if Hobby Lobby has the legal right to be exempted from the mandates placed on all insurance providers to cover 20 types of birth control for religious belief.

        to put it simply is Hobby Lobby religious. Not the owners the business

      • As you’ve already conceded in another post, YES, The scotus ruled thus when ruling that you don’t lose your religious freedoms by incorporating. Now you can disagree with their ruling, just like I disagree with the individual mandate ruling, but it’s still the precedent, so that part of your argument doesn’t really matter. As far as the employees having a say, as you stated in your response to another of my posts, I’m sure if they did, they wouldn’t agree with either of these SC judges that perhaps it would be better for Hobby Lobby to drop their insurance. And I’d bet most don’t give a darn about birth control in their ins. policies. But, that doesn’t matter either. You want to inject your “feelings” where they don’t belong.

      • Have you read what the Other Justices had to say?
        Or is your opinion/feelings based on the feelings of the above article?

        You obviously do not know how these 4 types of birth control medically prevent pregnancies and since your name is Joe I will also take a wild guess that you have no personal experience.

        Even if my statements are based on my feelings , which they are not. I have more experience than you do.

      • Obviously you have no idea how a supreme court decision works. It doesn’t matter what the dissenting judges opined, the majority ruled that corporations ARE people…like it or not.
        And you misunderstood my requests. How are you privy to the information in the lawsuit? Where are the case filings from Hobby Lobby describing what 4 abortion pills it’s against. All you did was post info on a pill, not knowing which 4 they are opposed to.

      • That is what you asked , if it was my opinion or if that is really how they work.
        I would think that obviously I do know about how the Court Works because I am not asking you where to find the documents .
        I am aware that the Court Ruled “Corporations are People” it was in Citizens United.
        But the Courts have not ruled that a for profit business (Corporation) can claim Religious Freedom.

        This is how the Court works, they have to decide on every applicable law.
        That is what the Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood case is all about.

        By the way Court documents are at the Court. I have a Court access account so I can read all of them.

  23. This little meme is making the Facebook rounds – it’s applicable here:

    You wouldn’t force an atheist to buy you a Bible; you wouldn’t force a vegetarian to buy you a hamburger. So why then would you force a Catholic to buy your birth control/abortion/sterilization?

    How about an answer to that one? Do please try not to sound like a hypocrite as you attempt to justify this kind of dishonesty.

    • The Law protects a persons right to choose.
      What you believe as a person can be different than your neighbor.
      Not everyone in America is an Atheist, a vegetarian, or Catholic.
      The laws are written for all Americans.

      • Is birth control really that hard to get? No one is denying them anything. And it’s only 4 of the 20 “birth control” pills that they are opposed to. Only the 4 that are “after conception” pills…ie Abortion pills.

      • It is the law that states insurance policies have to include all 20 types in their policy or they can’t sell policies.

        Hobby lobby is asking to be exempted from this law due to religious belief.
        In other words they are claiming because they believe this way all their employees share the same belief.

        The employees have no say
        in the matter at all, but it could medically affect them.

      • So why haven’t we heard from all these employees about how terrible it’s been all these years working for Hobby Lobby with no abortion pill coverage??? And why do we still not hear ANY hobby Lobby employee complaining now??? Another straw man argument Darla.

      • The employees do not have a say in this case. What they want does not matter.

        The case is does Hobby Lobby have religious belief over something that effects the personal medical choices of it’s employees.

        It is between the law of what the insurance providers must include in their package and Hobby Lobby’s religious belief.

        The Courts base their decision on that question and that question only.

      • “The employees do not have a say in this case. What they want does not matter.”

        So what they want doesnt matter its only the governments choice that matters? So the government then has the right to force people to do something against their will… you are so right Darla, you just proved what Hobby Lobby is trying to fight.

      • It is the law that these methods of birth control is legal.
        If an individual doesn’t want to use them it is their choice.

        Catholics do not believe in any birth control.
        Catholics do not determine what insurance policies must include in their package.

        Why? Because not all Americans are Catholic.

      • No one is disputing that these pills are legal either.
        You are right it is the individual’s choice to use them or not, so why should Hobby Lobby be forced to provide something for someone because it is their choice to do it? Why should Hobby Lobby go against their beliefs because of the choice of another person? And Catholics were fighting to have to provide birth control for their “employees”, i.e. the Nuns, Priests etc. There was the order of Catholic Nuns that brought a law suit against ACA as well.

        http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/supreme-court-justice-halts-birth-control-mandate-affordable-care-act-article-1.1563027

        http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/georgia-catholic-organizations-win-permanent-exclusion-from-obamacare-birth/

      • I agree with the Nuns who brought this case to court, but the difference there is they were doing it for them self from a Church.

        And not that it really matters I have never taken birth control .
        I had a hard enough time becoming pregnant resulting in a healthy baby. I didn’t want to take any chances with birth control.

        Each case is individual and the difference between a Church and Business is a very wide one to me.

      • Oh my lord, give me the patience… So why did you bring up Catholics if you didnt want input about that? Lord girl get your head out of where it dont shine and breathe! Your little grey cells are suffering!… It doesnt matter that the pills are legal or not, the point about this case is being forced to provide something that goes against their religious beliefs… The pills in question cause the abortion of fertilized eggs, which is a human life at the moment the egg and sperm meet. Hobby lobby is NOT asking that they are given the right to refuse all birth control but ONLY the ones that cause the death of a fertilized egg… get it? The ones they accept keep the egg from leaving the ovaries.. which means that there is NO fertilized egg to worry about… get it now? the other pills ONLY have a 89% chance of
        1. keeping the sperm from reaching the egg
        2. causing the wall of the uterus to thicken so the fertilized egg can’t attach
        Can you understand that now? That is two different actions the different pills do…. if you can’t I really feel pity for you as you try to warp it your way. God bless you and have a good night

      • I do get the difference in the ways the pills or IUD works, as you stated it. When I read it on web md I don’t get the difference. But it doesn’t matter if I agree with it or not. I have been a member of a few Churches that I didn’t agree with something, I still respect personal belief .

        This is the facts of this case from the Supreme Courts
        web page. Not filtered through any media.

        Facts of the Case

        The Green family owns and operates Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc., a national arts and crafts chain with over 500 stores and over 13,000 employees. The Green family has organized the business around the principles of the Christian faith and has explicitly expressed the desire to run the company according to Biblical precepts, one of which is the belief that the use of contraception is immoral. Under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA), employment-based group health care plans must provide certain types of preventative care, such as FDA-approved contraceptive methods. While there are exemptions available for religious employers and non-profit religious institutions, there are no exemptions available for for-profit institutions such as Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.

      • Hi Darla, if Hobby Lobby has organized the business around the principles of their Christian faith and has expressed that and other issues that fall under that, then they should fall under the umbrella like churches do since they are a religious employer. The bottom line, who knows how this will turn out.

      • HI, That is exactly what this case is about. Reba you explained it perfectly.
        There is one little other matter that is going to cause a slippery slope here. And that is non profits /Churches are also exempt from most taxes.

        No big surprise here I don’t think business should be considered the same as Churches.

        From what I heard the Justices are pretty much tied right now.

      • I left out non-profit, because Hobby Lobby is not non-profit, and they are not a Church, but they are a Christian Business. We have a lot of Christian Businesses in the area and I don’t know what their status is, or if they are part of the Churches or Private Businesses. I do believe that Hobby Lobby falls under the Umbrella of the right to not cover those 4 pills that are not Birth Control. The plus to me is that the Supreme Court agreed to hear several cases on this issue. . (PS: the president is taking the Little Sisters to court).

      • The Court agreed to hear 4 cases, and then they tried to combine them and only hear an argument on one.

        As they looked at all 4, 3 were filed as the owners, and Hobby Lobby was filed as the business.
        So now they heard 2 cases at the same time.

        And yes I am aware of the Nuns case but I have not read about it. Other Churches and non profits were exempted I don’t know why the Nuns wouldn’t be.

      • I question everything and then have to go research it.
        I don’t just read a couple things, I go to the Court page read the briefs.
        On the other post about the brick incident? I went to the cities page and checked out all their Public Officials, and State as well. I think I should have got a job in research. lol

      • Darla, exactly, and this is why they are fighting it because it is going against their beliefs since they own AND operate the store chains they dont want to be forced to provide a pill or any other means to a woman who can get these same pills on their own. They are NOT saying that these women can’t do it, they are NOT going to fire them if they do it, what they want is the freedom to not have to go against what they believe is wrong.

        If they are paying for the insurance, because group insurances provided by your employer is not just paid for by the employee but also the owner of the company, they want one that is not forcing them to provide a pill that kills a human being. They are NOT denying a woman all contraceptives but only a few that are preventing the fertilized egg to attach to the uterus… I have read this case as well, I am not taking it from any news source sweetheart so please don’t try to patronize me by inferring that I do not know what I am talking about. You can act like you know this case better than anyone on here but hun you are just someone who can google like anyone else on here.

        Again you do not bring anything new to the discussion but spin more circles chasing your own tail… Good night…

      • Actually it is affect I used it as a verb.

        When Should You Use Affect?

        Affect with an a means “to influence,” as in, “The arrows affected Aardvark,” or “The rain affected Amy’s hairdo.” Affect can also mean, roughly, “to act in a way that you don’t feel,” as in, “She affected an air of superiority.”

        When Should You Use Effect?

        Effect with an e has a lot of subtle meanings as a noun, but to me the meaning “a result” seems to be at the core of all the definitions. For example, you can say, “The effect was eye-popping,” or “The sound effects were amazing,” or “The rain had no effect on Amy’s hairdo.”

      • How is not offering these pills or abortions not giving them the right to choose? That person can go anywhere else and pay for it themselves if they have to have one so badly. Hobby Lobby is not telling them that they will fire them if they choose to do so. So how are they infringing on their right to choice?

      • It is the law that the insurance providers cover this in their package.
        Hobby. Lobby is stating they have a religious belief against the that law.

        It wouldn’t be much different if I owned a business and wanted it to be illegal for my employees to drink.
        I have strong religious belief against getting drunk
        The law says it is not illegal.
        I want Prohibition brought back.
        Same concept as this case.

      • They are NOT saying ‘don’t get an abortion’ or ‘don’t use contraception’. They are saying “We don’t want to pay for these things”. You clearly are too stupid to see the difference, despite you thinking you aren’t.

      • NO they are saying we don’t have to follow the law because we are Christians.

        It is that simple. Trying to turn this into everything else is only confusing you. I know what it is about I got my information from the actual Court Case from the attorneys who have followed this from the beginning.

        Are you really that naive that you don’t know how insurance policies work? Seriously if that is the case you really should look it up.

      • They are saying that the law violates their 1’st Amendment rights, which it does, by forcing them to pay for something they don’t believe in and that violates their beliefs. Since you clearly don’t give a rat’s ash for their beliefs, you can’t see this.
        I don’t care HOW many times you try to make this into what it is not – and I know well how insurance works, I used to sell it. This isn’t about how insurance works.
        The other poster was right – you’re as dense as a stump. Enough of this discussion with you.

      • This is about how insurance works. That is the only thing this case is about.
        The law states if you sell an insurance policy you have to include coverage for these 20 types of birth control.

        Hobby lobby is using religious belief not to follow the law of the required coverage of 20 birth control methods.

        I have 12 yr olds who understand this so honestly you would be better off to stop.

      • I do not understand why you have such a hard time
        comprehending things that are very simply put, Hobby Lobby isn’t saying that their employees can’t use birth control pills; they aren’t saying that their employees can’t go out and purchase those pills on their own. What they are saying Darla, is that they do not want to provide the pills to them; they do not want to be forced to offer something that goes against their Christian values. No where do they state that they are trying to impose their beliefs on their employees or infringe in their private lives, they are not forcing them to go to church or be Christian for that matter. Stop injecting your own thoughts and words into what they are fighting for or against.

  24. A Corporation IS NOT a person and is therefore NOT endowed with the same rights as a human being. The Corporation is the one the gov’t is telling to buy and pay for insurance. It’s redress is through the Congress, the same people whom elected to tell said Corp.’s to purchase insurance. It CANNOT in any way shape or form PRACTICE Religion!!. It’s owner’s can/do perhaps practice their religious beliefs, but THEY DO NOT have the right to foister their religious code on those whom differs from theirs. Buy the insurance or pay the tax and shut up.

    • There can be no corporations without people, and no law says that the people who own corporations give up their right to their religious beliefs when they form a corporation. However nothing in the Constitution gives the Congress any role in insurance, health care, education, the ‘environment’, telecommunications, the Internet, or anything else that deals with our personal lives. “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.”

      “The State governments may be regarded as constituent and essential parts of the federal government; whilst the latter is nowise essential to the operation or organization of the former. “

      • Who is forcing their religious belief on to others? Hobby Lobby isn’t forcing their employees to be Christian just because they don’t want to provide abortion pills. They aren’t making any of them go to church, or attend any Bible study. They just don’t want to be forced to give a pill that kills unborn babies.

      • The birth control they (and others) are objecting to works the same way as birth control pills.
        Look them up.
        The question the Justices are going to decide is this,
        “Can a Business claim religious stand for a group of employees”

      • Darla,

        You claim that all birth control work the same way,
        however I don’t agree. The birth control that Hobby Lobby is fighting against is called the Plan B birth control, in other words it’s the Progestin only pill that alone, can allow the egg to fertilize, and thus creating a pregnancy as Christians believe that at conception the human life begins. The progestin only pill thickens the wall of the uterus or creates a mucus lining on the wall to keep the fertilized egg from attaching. It also partially limits the sperms ability to reach or fertilize the egg which is similar to the combination pill.

        The combination pill is both estrogen and progestin where the estrogen stops the Pituitary gland from producing two hormones FSH and LH in order to prevent ovulation. The 4 pills that Hobby Lobby is lobbying against are the ones that are only 89% effective and the Birth Control pill that is taken daily is 99% effective in preventing pregnancy.

        Hobby Lobby is not saying they will not provide any
        access to birth control but only four specific pills that cause what some view as “abortions” or miscarriages; they are NOT denying women access to combination pills.

        Now the question is when does life begin? If we can
        answer that then we are opening up a whole new can of worms. For Christians life begins at conception, when the sperm fertilizes the egg, so if the Plan B pill is preventing the fertilized egg from implanting then it is causing an abortion, thus it is ending life, whereas the combination pill prevents the egg to be released in the first place or preventing pregnancy to happen in the first place. Since you seem to be under this theory that it is not a life until it is
        implanted, I’d like to share with you what WebMD states about the fertilized egg, “At the instant of fertilization, your
        baby’s genes and sex are set. If the sperm has a Y chromosome, your baby will be a boy. If it has an X chromosome, the baby will be a girl.”

        I think you need to do some more research, I am sure the lawyers for Hobby Lobby did an extensive research to be
        able to compare the differences in the types of BC that causes the fertilized egg to abort.

      • I posted this below it is from web md.

        4. What is Plan B One-Step’s active ingredient?

        Each pill contains levonorgestrel, a synthetic version of the hormone progestin. Levonorgestrel has been used in birth control pills for over 35 years. Plan B One-Step contains a higher dose of levonorgestrel than in regular birth control pills.

      • Exactly my dear…. which prevents an already fertilized egg from attaching to the wall. In other words sweetness, its destroying a human life by means of abortion, in short, its causing the uterus to form a barrier so the fertilized egg can not attach… get it now? … the synthetic hormone progestin is in both BC, but in the Plan B pills there is MORE of that synthetic hormone and NO estrogen so it allows the egg to be fertilized and thus causing the death of a human life….

      • Actually I think I do get it, (not being sarcastic)
        It is pretty much the rate that is the difference I was missing.

        “” The 4 pills that Hobby Lobby is lobbying against are the ones that are only 89% effective and the Birth Control pill that is taken daily is 99% effective in preventing pregnancy.”

    • A corporation is a entity made up of PEOPLE who have their beliefs. PEOPLE have the right to run their business or is the government now running EVERYTHING.

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