Atheist activists spit in the eye of God over Mt. Soledad Memorial

This past Thursday, US District Judge Larry Burns issued a ruling that the Mount Soledad Memorial cross in San Diego had to be taken down. This is the latest iteration in a 25-year case involving the monument that has stood atop Mount Soledad since 1954.

In a statement released by the Mount Soledad Memorial Association, its president and CEO Bruce Bailey stated,

“Judge Burns’s comments made it clear that, in his opinion, he was bound by the 9t hU.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which had given him edicts that he had to evaluate. Judge Burns reminded everyone that this opinion (meaning the 9th Circuit opinion) was the law of the case.”

The Association’s Bailey seemed to agr:ee with the Judge’s opinion:

“He was simply doing what his oath of office required of him: follow the constitution.” Bailey said. However, Burns’s earlier ruling in 2008 indicated that the cross was constitutional and did not need to be removed. But the 9th Circuit sent it back to him, ordering that either the parties agree to a resolution or, if not, Burns was to provide a remedy.

There is still hope the case may be heard by the Supreme Court.

But is this yet another case of judicial activism overturning itself in this case? We are reminded of the California Proposition 8 (Gay Marriage) referendum in 2008 where the people, by their vote, decided they wanted marriage defined as between a man and woman. That was not good enough for special interest groups who took the case to the courts, and voila, the democratic process was overruled by the ultimate “Men in Black.”

But back to this abhorrent case. The Mount Soledad Association provided a bit of history in its statement:

(It) does not view the cross as a religious symbol but rather as an international symbol of sacrifice. It was erected in 1954 to honor the sacrifices of veterans who served during the Korean War. William J. Kellogg, chairman emeritus of the Mt. Soledad Memorial Association, has spent much of his adult life defending the presence of the cross at the Memorial. It was approximately six years after Kellogg joined the Association that a case was filed on behalf of Philip Paulson, an atheist, contesting the presence of the cross. According to the Association’s press statement, “Over the years, the Memorial Association expanded its mission to honor veterans who served during time of war and, beginning in 2007, to all U.S. veterans, living and deceased”. The Memorial is owned by the federal government and is managed by Navy Region Southwest, to whom the Mt. Soledad Memorial Association reports. But the Association’s role has been much more than a caretaker and maintainer of the property. In addition to maintaining the Memorial, the Association raises funds for the site through plaque sales, membership dues and donations and receives no money from the government. It has constantly enhanced and improved the mountaintop memorial site.

It’s apparent to me that these atheist groups and others who would destroy the symbol of the cross at this memorial fail to understand the relevance and meaning. In the Bible, John 3:16 it states, “For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

The cross represents the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to fulfill God’s promise to us all. And there could be no more fitting place for the cross than to be at the Memorial of those who were wiling to make the ultimate sacrifice for each and every one of us, “the last full measure of devotion.”

The cross casts a peaceful shadow upon those and blesses them in eternity. It reminds those of us who are living, and those who stood beside them at the moment of their passing, that they have found eternal rest and peace. John 15:13 beautifully links the ideal of Jesus’ service, sacrifice, and commitment to that of the American combat veteran, “Greater love has no one than this – that one lays down his life for his friends.”

I condemn the actions of those who seek to tear down this symbol rooted in our nation’s Judeo-Christian faith heritage. Thomas Jefferson stated, “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.” We risk a horrible danger if we continue to spit in the eye of God.

Forget the overused “separation of church and state” argument because in no way does this cross represent the state promoting religion. It is meant to symbolize the bond between a man who sought to save our souls for eternity and those who sought to save our earthly liberties and freedoms.

If you agree with me, please contact your representatives, the 9th Circuit Court, Supreme Court, and city officials in San Diego and tell them, the cross atop Mount Soledad must forever stand.

1122 COMMENTS

    • If the Christians would mind their own business, there would be no reason for lawsuits like this.

      Its Christian groups filing lawsuits so they can push Christianity at the schools, Christianity in Science, Christianity in Government, Christianity in the bedroom, even Christianity in women’s reproductive organs.

      Who is the biggest attention whores?

      Get over it, we are not a Christians country, Christians need to play by the same rules as everybody else, stop acting like somehow Christians are more entitled than the rest.

      • Sorry, but it is the MINORITY LGBTLMNCOW community and the athiests who feel they are more entitled to EVERYTHING, than the rest of us. Just don’t look at it. How hard is that? I am offended by all you people who are offended by everything I believe in. There is a seat waiting for you in a very hot place though I doubt the proprietor there would even look at your resume. Do not reply, for you will receive not back. I am busy celebrating the birth of my Lord and Savior who came to serve and save such as you. I wish I could be more like Him. You will not receive an answer, no matter what you say, so don’t waste your time. God Bless You and Merry CHRISTmas. .

      • Really? I thought it was the entitlements bunch that felt that way. You know, the ones with the Obama Phones, and the numerous other handouts granted by the current administration.

        And this whole “don’t reply” crap you keep spewing, you need to understand that this is a forum where people speak digitally to one another. If you do not wish to participate in an actual conversation then please do not speak up.

        I highly suggest you REALLY dig deep into the origins of what you call your savior’s birth day for you might be shocked that a Catholic Pope decreed that three days after Yule (the Winter Solstice) the Catholic Church would celebrate the birth of the Jesus, even when evidence was shown prior to the contrary. The reply was “It’s easier to convert the Pagans and Heretics during their own celebrations.”

      • NA NA NA NA I have a perfect right to ask someone not to reply to me. I think it is called the first amendment. So, are you saying that I don’t have the right to say anything because I don’t want to hear your drivel in return? DUH! So after I ask you not to reply you reply. And you did not even understand my post in the first place. I repeat, DUH! And don’t reply to me. You offend me and If you offend me then you have to go away and not offend me anymore. Bye BYe Jon, you who can’t understand “DONT REPLY TO ME”

      • Again, you didn’t ask me to do anything, you stated it. If you don’t want to read a reply, then don’t. You only show ignorance otherwise if you continue to spout the drivel above. You have no authority over me to tell me anything. Had you actually asked, it would be different.

      • How is saying NA NA NA NA and DUH and saying that he has no authority to tell me to do anything, “pushing it?”. I doubt he is one of my county commissioners, governor, or such, therefore he has no authority over me.

      • HA! And now as I go back to my nice warm bed and my nice warm HUSBAND and nice warm kitty, you can keep assuming all the stuff you assume, like I am a man. I love it. Ok, PLEASE OH PLEASE I BEG BEG BEG don’t reply to me.

      • Um, “HE’s saying” and ‘HE has not authority to tell me”. Kinda sounds like HE and not SHE. AND THANK YOU SO MUCH for detaching your barnacle from my behind. It was bothering my husband.

      • You fail to realise that the birth of Jesus is celebrated, so who cares if we do not know the actual date? Where have you been hiding if you are shocked that a Catholic Pope decreed anything, wake up and have a look in the real world. I know that the early church used murder and babarity, everyone and everything needs to renew their credentials from time to time, the church is no different, so you go and renew your credentials before you go onto a podium to glorify yourself as an atheist.

      • I’m not an Atheist so your argument is invalid. You also fail to see that the reason that Julius I chose that day was because it was in the middle of several Pagan festivals.

      • I am not an atheist. I have stated what I am. Whether you believe it is on you. You have failed to add to this conversation with the topic at hand; only attack everyone that you feel is wrong. I stated facts to educate, you have stated your beliefs and only your beliefs and have not even added to the issue of the cross being removed due to court order.

      • So the pope took the holiday of the happy little fluffy flies and changed it to Christmas. Your point being?

      • Christians to mind their own business? Who does the most complaining and non stop complaining and provocative complaining if not atheists and homosexuals and womens groups in favour of murdering their unborn babies. Look for yourselves on the net, don’t hide in ignorance.

      • Actually statistically speaking it would be the Christians complaining the most since our nation is about 80% Christian. Your question should have been who complains the loudest?

      • I have not condoned anything sir. The Internet is also an anonymous network of computers. It is essentially the wild west.

      • The homosexual lobby would have to be the biggest whores on the planet and those who disagree with them are howled down, They are deliberatly provocative and usually in front of a church, trying to create a confrontation.

      • This must be hard for you Frank, but God created the heavens and the earth so it is His, His claim is older than the US. Womens reproductive organs, so they belong to who? the women who happen to have them or the almighty who created them? So completely ridiculous, now Christians are in the bedroom and in womens reproductive organs and taking away womens right to murder their babes, when was it OK to murder your babes? When Caligula married his sister and cut her pregnant womb open and ate the babe? But hang on,Caligula wasn’t a Christian, he was a pagan. Damn.

  1. Once again these “Judges” ignore the free exercise clause of the Constitution. Personally I do not see how any court can even rule on this. The first amendment is pretty clear. The Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof is pretty plain language. If you rule a cross has to come down are you preventing free exercise? Absolutely. A the Cross is a universal symbol of Christianity, Christianity is comprised of many different religions and is not a religion unto itself and would only apply if the government itself put up the cross in the name of a particular religion, i.e..Catholicism thereby endorsing it.

    • Christianity is only one religion, it has many denominations, but it is only a single religion. The Christian Cross does not represent many religions. If you can show me irrefutable proof otherwise, I’ll retract my statement.

      • That is simple. First Christianity is not a religion. It is as you say a group of denominations. Christian religions have the common belief that Jesus was the risen son of God. The cross is central to all Christian faiths in that Christ died on it to pay for the sins of mankind.. That cross is the same cross of Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics Mormons Seventh day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses and any other Christian denomination. Need I go on? I think that is fairly obvious evidence

      • So now you’re saying that Christianity is not a religion? Now where’s your proof? I want a peer reviewed article on that one!

        And that free exercise thing you mentioned, it doesn’t apply n Federal Land.

      • Christianity is a term identifying a group of religions both Catholic and Protestant that believe in Christ as as the son of God.. Jews for example do not believe in Christ.. Your constitutional rights do exist on federal land. It would be a sad day in this country when the government could suspend your individual rights because you are on the National mall or in Yellowstone Park.

      • No one said that individual’s rights are given up on federal land–unless you happen to be a member of the military, in which case you have very little individual rights as you are property of the government (it’s in the contract).

        This is a case where the monument was originally erected on private land but due to increasing public donations (willing or not since it also came from city funding) it was annexed by the Federal Gov under Public Law 192-272. Once it was annexed as Federal Land, it could no longer display the Latin cross as a symbol of Christianity, which was why it was erected in the first place (The cross was erected in 1954 and was dedicated at an Easter Sunday ceremony describing the monument as a “gleaming white symbol of Christianity.” found on http://www.lajollalight.com/2013/12/12/breaking-news-judge-orders-removal-of-la-jollas-mount-soledad-cross/)

        As for your claim about Christianity being just a “term,” this is from Encyclopedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/115240/Christianity

        It was also used to denote the followers of Christ according to Tyndale Bible Dictionary, pp. 266, 828.

        Back to the topic of religious monuments on federal lands:

        These are links to issues like this one, including an earlier ruling on this by the SCOTUS which forced this back down into lower courts. I will also quote Justice Stevens: “The cross is not a universal symbol of sacrifice. It is the symbol of
        one particular sacrifice, and that sacrifice carries deeply significant meaning for those who adhere to the Christian faith.”

        http://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-01/11-religious-displays-on-government-property.html
        http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/religious-symbols-on-public-property-trigger-convoluted-church-state-debates
        http://www.religioustolerance.org/sep_c_s1.htm#
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/28/AR2010042801949.html

      • Not sure where when or how the Federal Government came into possesion of the property. I agree it is federal property. However the Memorial Association is self funding, or at least they claim so in their website. The following is a cut and paste from their site. The Memorial is owned by the Federal Government and maintained by the Mt. Soledad Memorial Association.

        The Memorial Association receives no funding from the Federal Government. We are financed completely through the sale of veteran plaques, Membership fees and donations. The Mt. Soledad Memorial Association is a 501(c)(3) non-profit California organization.

        Plaques are available for purchase to honor any person who served honorably in the U.S. military. For details, contact the Association office at 858-459-2314.
        If they want to preserve the site they should buy the land back from the government thereby making it private, move the memorial in it’s entirety it to private property.

      • August 2006 to quell the disputes on the issue. The funds are from the city itself and I believe, though not certain, possibly the state via taxes. Any type of public funding (such as by taxation) means that it must follow the federal mandates for such memorials.

        You are correct, if they want to keep it there they should buy it back. The government bought it from them via public law, so if the government is willing to sell it, then they should buy it.

      • Jon according to the Mt. Soledad Memorial Association who operates the memorial they fund it through donations. They are a 501 (c) (3) organization. Perhaps grants from the government or city? But they say otherwise. As a 5010 (C) they have to account for the money they use.

      • There are different types of 501(C) organizations. A 501 (C) (3) is a religious educational non profit. They cannot receive taxpayer money for the same reasons this organization is being told to remove the cross. Simply put a Non profit religious organization cannot get money from the government because the government can’t fund a religion or any of it’s activities. That would violate the establishment clause. You are confusing private donations coming from the public and calling that public funding.

      • Do you live there? And you know that for a fact? I’m surprised that Californians would allow that to go on for decades if true. I’m on the total opposite side of the country and would have no way of knowing. I will say the association itself claims three sources of revenue, none of them from the City. Again this is what the association says about their funding “The Memorial Association receives no funding from the Federal Government. We are financed completely through the sale of veteran plaques, Membership fees and donations.” You will notice that payments from the city are absent. Try visiting the sites web page. They claim something other than what you are saying.

      • Actually my nose is a little stuffed up due to the weather so I guess the answer would either be no because I have a stuffed up nose and even if I didn’t the memorial wouldn’t fit up there.

      • Jon, as I recall, you asked me not to post anymore comments to you and I have complied with your wishes so why do you keep addressing them to me.

      • George washington prayed to God for the success of the revolution, who will tell him that he was in violation of a man made law.?

      • And does the goverment pay for all of the services that were offered by Christian organisations during times of crisis.?

      • The US government owns the land so that there is no more complaint about religious symbols. The group managing it refuses to allow other religious symbols to be posted, ergo they have violated the law of the US. Therefore, the courts have ordered it to be removed. Please read the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights if you wish to understand what is going on.

      • What you write here write to the people who have the memorial or try veterans affairs, tell them you are of Native Indian background and you wish a memorial in keeping with that background.

      • It was erected on Easter Sunday in 1954 as a gleaming white symbol of Christianity (exact words mind you), not as a symbol for veterans, of which the memorial is for.

      • I’m upset that they refuse to allow other religious symbols on the grounds, not that there is a cross there; only that it is the only thing there.

      • Then petition them Jon for another memorial. There is one there already so another one is not going to be any harder.

      • It may the only way to save it. Saving the memorial is something I would prefer to happen. The city sold this land to the Mt. Soledad Memorial Association twice. Both sales were voided by lawsuit in the 9th circuit. How the two veterans who were atheists who filed the suit had standing to sue is questionable. Their first suit was to remove the cross. They won. City says hmm….. expensive. How about we sell the land. MSMA says we’ll buy it. Same vets say no to sale they are not part of. (what standing to sue do they have) Court agrees. Sale is voided. City puts sale out to completive bid . The memorial association wins again. Same guys sue again. What is their standing to sue? Who knows. 9th circuit agrees. it seems the 9th circuit is determined to take down the cross.

      • So a deliberate campaign by two noisy minority exservicemen creates this fuss. A true vote for commonsense and a true vote for a democratic ruling. A case of the majority not winning. Two complaints, only two spoilers.

      • Malicious prosecutions mate. Over here the government built a large monument on government land for the soldiers of the great war, no one wants to move it and to try would be political suicide. Check it out on Google, the war memorial in Adelaide.

      • Ron just so you know, I’m on your side in this. I support Mt Soledad. The Mt Soledad association should take the voiding of the sales to the SCOTUS. Once that land was sold to the association and made private, the atheists lost standing to sue.

      • It is a lot of fuss just because it is a cross. I believe that a cross has stood on that site since 1926, now that is a long time. long before the people complaining were born. Now how many people refused to do military service because they saw that cross and didn’t want it to represent them? I would venture to say, none. The Cross is a symbol of the suffering that Jesus underwent and so realistically portrayed in Mel Gibson’s film ” the Passion of the Christ. Recently we see more and more discrimination towards Christians and a soffentening of attitudes towards Islam, a campaign working against Christ from within, from Satan.

      • This is a memorial built by a goverment to commemorate the soldiers of WWl so if any of them where atheists, no one complained and to this day no one does. On government land and built by the government.

      • Then I must be exactly what the Army calls me: mentally unstable with suicidal tenancies.Your god is not my leader no is it the leader of my religion. Stop acting like you are better than me because you’re a Christian. If you want to be better than me, state the facts as to what you have accomplished and seen in your lifetime, Aussie. How many people have you forced conversion onto with your speech of “you must believe in god to get to heaven or you go to hell?” It won’t work on me. I am ordained, my father-in-law is a Christian preacher and he and I go toe to toe on this often. I’ve heard it all and you are no better than he is.

      • I seek to convert no one. I enjoy the banter. I do not claim to be better than you and when did this become a competition of who did what, as to what anyone deserves, I leave that up to God because he is in charge.

      • You are free to be a pagan. I will not try to convert you, I do not try to convert anyone. If you have been told that you are metally unstable and suicidal then that is only your government talking, they want to confiscate any guns you may have. Mexican illegals are getting the welfare and so you lads who fought for your country get nothing, depite your president printing out $4,000,000,000,000 and who watches him?

      • You ask why I should pat attention to what happens in the US, we are allies of the US and currently have US bases on our soil. In our captol city the is a war memorial errected after WWl and it commemorates the men who fought and died in that action, prominent is a large cross and the figure of an angel, this is known as the cross of sacrifice, no one complains about it, no political leader complains about it, no judge has ruled against it.

      • That’s funny since Jesus himself was a Jew. It was the Romans that wanted him crucified. Jesus was a member of a small Jewish sect called the Nazarenes.

      • No, the Romans had the authority to sentence people to death but it was the Jewish population, under the leadership of the Sanhedrin that wanted him dead and a murderer was released in his stead. The wife of Pontius Pilate begged her husband not to have anything to do with the matter.

      • Be the first, peer review. Only, God does not make house calls, so you better go to God to find out if you are right or wrong. Wish you luck. Argue with him who owns the land, ask the Indians, it was pinched from them.

      • Why would I need your God to prove that Christianity is a religion and not a set of religions? You make no sense in that argument.

        I am American Indian. My father was half-Muskogee and my mother half-Cherokee. Does that mean I now have more right to the land? If so I say tear it down with out your permission because by your argument it’s my land anyway.

      • Go right ahead and do as you like, native American or not, God does not discriminate, hell is open to anyone.

      • Strangely I must ask why a South Australian is so concerned about what is going on in the US when all over your facebook you have posts talking about how bad we are as a country.

        This memorial that is legally being taken down has absolutely nothing to do with your country, yet you speak to us as if you have stake in it. Christian or not, you are an extremist seeking attention because you are retired with nothing better to do.

      • I have faith in God, I know that Jesus suffered dreadfully and he accepted it for our sakes. I do not denigrate your country, your counrty has exported itself to the world by ideas and film, by military might. If Christ is insulted by anyone anywhere then I believe that it would be wrong to remain silent, and that by remaining silent then I am complicit in that campaign against the gleaming white cross of Christianity. So my location on earth is incidental, the earth and all that in them is belongs to the creator.

      • I think Jon, that any negative comments that I made would have been directed at your police who have a habit of shooting people rather than trying to sort out the problem, like your SWAT team who killed an 108 year old man who didn’t want to leave his room and he had a revolver, so he fires some shots into the door, now the SWAT team felt that they could handle the task admirably by throwing stun grenades into the room and then burst in machiine guns blazing, he was 108 years old, nobody tried to talk him out, the cops were armoured, could have waited for him to fall asleep, you were a soldier, how would you have handled it.

      • Personally, I would have asked why I would be there in the first place. Then I would ask why he didn’t want to leave. Lastly, I would tell my squad to leave because we have no business telling a man who was 108 to leave his house if there is no actual reason to do so.

      • My sentiments exactly, but you were not there Jon, the governments hired thuigs, hitmen in uniform were and they killed him.

      • Not the government, the Police Department.For some reason the police out here think they are above the law and as such it doesn’t apply to them.

      • Why would you need God? Christianity is a religion and not a set of religions, being of Indian heritage then you would know about the great spirit that facinates so many new age religionists. but it still doesn’t explain what it is that has got you so worked up, if it were something about American bigotry against indians then I could understand, but to care about one instance of federal money being used in one place where a cross has been placed and intially in 1926, what you say makes no sense.

      • Fairly obvious information?

        noun
        noun: religion
        1.
        the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
        “ideas about the relationship between science and religion”synonyms:faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology;
        So now you will tell me that faith in God is not a religious practice, that faith in Jesus who was sent by God to us is not a religion. I think that you are in error. And as for these others that you mention, they have grouped themselves into denominations that are in error, they must find their way out of error by obedience to God and the word of God.Now in you first sentence you contradict yourself, you say Christianity is not a religion, then you say Christian religions, so which is it?

      • You misread what I said, so I will simplify it. There are many Christian religions. Catholic Lutheran Methodist Baptists etc. All believe in God and Jesus. Then there are the Muslims and Buddhists and of course Judaism. There are a few others but you get my point.

      • I get your point but there is only one Christian religion, not the 40,000 denominations that we have today, so Catholic Lutheran Methodist Baptists etc. All believe in God and Jesus, yes, but do they obey His commandments? better not to belong to any denomination and read your bible and be responsible for what you do. Jehova’s witnesses are an example of blind obedience to an ideal, because in an attempt to avoid blood, they include blood transfusions with the eating of drinking of blood.

      • Can’t you read.? A universal symbol of Christianity. You wish to iritate 1.2 billion Catholics? And how many protestants?

      • I can read. I can also sing, dance, fence, shoot, ride horses, hunt, survive with nothing but a knife and hatchet, and build many types of wooden structures.

        Show me proof against my statement and as I said, I will retract it.

      • Sow me incontrovertible proof that anything happened anyewhere at any time. God exists as you will find to your cost.

      • A wicked generation asks for signs. I can not command God and neither do I wish to, so for you to see you must be amenable to what you ask but you have closed your mind. There is none so blind as those that will not see.

      • Amazing grace
        How sweet the sound
        that saved a wretch like me
        I was, was lost
        but now I’m found
        was blind but now I see.

      • Jesus said that a wicked generation asks for a sign and I see that you have plenty of hobbies, but the question remains, why?

      • Determined to put your foot into it lad, but don’t worry, God knows how you feel. Just guessing, but maybe a life time in the pits of hell is to your liking, want to risk it.

      • Postcard or letter? If letter, what kind of letterhead? If postcard, which type view would you like: mountain, lakes, or fields?

      • This wicked generation asks for a sign. They did not believe Moses, so they will not believe Jesus or the prophets.

    • Yes, we have the first amendment. But, consitutions of the federal government, and most state governments (including California) also has a “no preference” clause in regard to religion. All the court cases lost by goverenments who support Christian crosses have been assessed to have promoted one religion over another. Most people are either not aware of the “no preference” clause or they conveniently don’t admit it exists.

      • There is no “preference clause” in the written Constitution unless you regard the one created by activist judges. There is an establishment clause forbidding the establishment of a national religion, and a free exercise clause preventing the free practice of ones chosen religion. The exact text is as I wrote it. The Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof. Christianity is a broad spectrum of Catholic and protestant faiths. The founders wanted no part of a national religion such as the Anglican Church. As I sated in my earlier post, the Supreme Court should not be taking these cases unless the government is attempting to establish a national religion. Every time they make a ruling to take down a cross they are not just ignoring, but stomping on the free exercise clause.

      • There is an Establishment Clause which does do that for you so the judges wouldn’t have to. The Founding Fathers put that in there.

  2. The government owns our National Cemeteries as well. When will they start telling our soldiers they need to start removing the cross from their graves.

    • There’s much more to this story about how it got to this point. It was put to a vote by the citizens and they voted to keep the cross. Then it went into the courts who said it couldn’t sit on city land so the city put that little circle of land it sits on up for sale to a private party and I believe it was deeded to a private party, meaning the cross was no longer on city owned land. (I think I have this in the right order.) The original person who filed the law suit didn’t like the solution, so it went back to court and back to being city land by court order. It seems every time things went in favor of keeping the cross, it went back to court. This has become what it is because the courts have been making law from the bench.

      • THe federal government is US. Why do you act like it is a separate entity? Rhetorical. I do not reply to replies.

      • Sucks to be you because you replied to me. The Federal Government is not actually the people of the US but a representative of the people of the US. Hence we are a Constitutional Republic. We elected people to stand before us as our leaders. Those leaders made a choice to make this memorial part of Federal Land and a national memorial Once this was enacted into law in 2006, the memorial must be “brought up to code” hence the cross must legally be removed according to the Establishment Clause.

        As for the “rhetorical” aspect of your reply…if we actually had true control over our government then why don’t “We the People” stand up and take our government back?

      • It sucks to be you because YOU replied to me after I asked you not to because you are so stupid you cannot read. Now, let me try again, nimrod. SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP You offend me. Go away and shut your mouth before what is left of your brain drops into your soup. Gee, that was fun and felt good. I should do it more often.

      • You asked nothing of the sort, you only stated you do not reply to replies. I don’t know if you have noticed it, but I tend to reply to EVERYTHING that people reply to me on.

        Call me Nimrod all you want, he was the great-grandson of Noah and a King. How is that an insult?

        You also need some serious anger management or at least some lessons in how to insult people properly. You didn’t even address the question posed, only *tried* to insult me.

      • I know that being a law student is a sin, but how is my religious choice something you are even allowed to judge–by the words of your own sacred text mind you.

      • As I said earlier, you are a pagan and I am a Christian so somebody is wrong. Somebody is bound to be wrong. but it still doesn’t explain why you put so much effort into this action to have a harmless cross removed, and you mentioned PTSD before, so why stress yourself with this matter, why is it so important to you. Do not use the arguement that some of the soldiers were atheists, by now, they would know the truth of what we can only guess and doesn’t prove that they are offended by the cross.

      • I put the effort into this because the cross is there illegally. Once the suit was completed and found in favor of the original plaintiff (a Jewish Veteran) this became a legal matter, not a religious one. If the suit was found in favor of the defendants, there would not be an uproar about it because it would not have made headlines. The effort I put into this is to show people that regardless of their beliefs, the law of this nation says it must come down. The only reason the court found in favor of the plaintiff was that the memorial’s caretakers breached the Separation of Church and State clauses when they refused to allow other religious emblems/icons to be placed at the memorial. This becomes important because the memorial, like all other memorials to US Veterans on US soil, is on federal land and must uphold this statute.

      • Try and understand Jon. God made the heavens and the earth and all that in them is, so God calls the shots. Your US federal law has no effect on God, I know, it is hard to believe but God dpoesn’t really care about the US. If he did then he probably would have sent thunderbolts to punish the US for its arrogance.

      • So then why, if God doesn’t care about the US, would God care about a cross being taken down in the US? I mean, think about how many churches are built and torn down each year. I’m sure they have crosses in them.

      • I wondered about that. Your statement, only a representative of the people, so if they make a bad law you don’t mind? So if you had the chance to read every statute that was ever written in the US would you be game to take a breath? Go outside, say some thing, anything, believe in God without a license? Accept the fact that you had created a dictator?

      • It seems that regardless of what is said or how it is said you will always attempt to twist words around to make it seem as if you are above everyone else. I’m a DV with a D.Div. studying business law We can play the game if you wish, but you will not like the outcome.

      • You come up with comments that you can not substantiate, I experess my belief which I cannot substantiate so it remains a matter of what we believe spurred on by a government which creates division.

      • What have I said that I have not provided links to the articles on? I have said prove to me without using faith or the bible and you agree that it cannot be done. I provide the links and information to the law in question and to articles on the several other things mentioned and it is not substantial? You have a really messed up educational background if when presented factual arguments you deny them as “unsubstantial.”

      • No, the federal government annexed it as they do with all other memorials to veterans. Get a copy of Public Law 192-272 from August 2006 and read it. You may understand after that.

      • It seems that it was to create a contentious issue and then you came along to give it an impetus, so the government does this to distract a populace, meanwhile Christian and anti Christian are left to sort the matter out.

      • #1: There are more than Christians and anti-Christians in this world. #2: As stated before, the law is the law. Period. Read the law in question and you will soon figure out the issues better. I am not here because of the government but for other more personal reasons of which you do not seem to grasp.

      • I am still waiting to find out what it is about the cross that offends you. We all have problems with something built or something placed but you are taking it to extremes, so why?

      • I never said it offends me. I said that if the cross is to be there then there needs to be other religious emblems or icons as well, otherwise it needs to come down. This is the law of the US.

      • As I have said many times, those who maintain the site will not allow anyone to add any other religious symbol to the site. This is how the suit started in the first place.

      • Then tell those people who have sined against God to correct the errors of their ways, if they are in the wrong they must repent.

      • Your facts are not accurate. When the peson, Howard Kreisner, filed suit, not one priave entity had come forward. Howard was a personal friend of mine and always said this would be an acceptable solution. Then, the city of San Diego did put up the cross and land for sale to the public, but secretly. In secret, it awarded it to a group at an unreasonably low price. The courts then said the city violated its own regulations that stated it had to be put up for sale publicly and take the highest bid. The city refused to do this and then the subject became null and void.

    • Ruby, God is always in charge. Jesus said we would be persecuted in His name and it is happening all over the world and has ramped up. So be proud to persecuted in His name. It means you are doing something right. (I will reply to you)

  3. I have to disagree, Sir. I was one of your troops in 2002-2003 before French took over 2-20 FA. One thing that you taught us that we need to lead by example and that the Constitution is our source of law and liberty within our nation.

    This memorial was erected to show a symbolism of our Veterans, but as a symbol it cannot and does not represent our entire force–past or present. It is a Christian symbol that is being used to represent a group of people that are not all Christian. I served for 11 years. I am Pagan. My last section was comprised of Pagans, Atheists, Jews, Christians, and Buddhists. How does this symbolism show the diversity of my section? Or of the Battalion you commanded? It doesn’t. That is the issue at hand: not whether a symbol should be there, but does that symbol actually represent us.

    Think of all of the other military symbols out there for our veterans–Iwo Jima, the 4th ID Memorial, and others. Not a single one has an actual religious symbol on or as a part of it. The monument in question is a giant cross, surrounded by a chain-link fence with barbed wire, at the top of a hill that is surrounded by plaques of fallen Service Members and a US Flag. How does this show the actual diversity of our Fallen Heroes?

    • Sir i can understand your question,the answer to your question is the cross is a worldy recognized symbol of christianity, which promotes love thy neighbor, so to have a cross to symbolize vetrans,no matter who they are,states that they are loved by all in this country. So don’t worry it’s not going to interfere with your standing beliefs.

      • I didn’t say that it interferes with my beliefs, I said that for a memorial that is supposed to represent me and my fellow vets it only supports a portion us. Look at the headstones in Arlington and you’ll see more than just a cross in them, you’ll see Stars of David, Pentacles, Thor’s Hammers, Buddhist emblems, etc.

      • A Thor’s Hammer would insult Thor. I will have no headstone as I will be cremated and my ashes spread to the Four Winds.

      • Bear one thing in mind, the culture that invented technology was the Christian culture, it was not the Chinese or the Asian and it was not the lunatic desert dwelling Muhhammdins.

      • The organization that maintains the memorial refuses to allow any other religious emblem or icon to be placed.

  4. I am getting more and more irritated at supposedly intelligent people who cannot even understand their own logic syllogisms. I keep hearing this whole BS about how “You can’t put up a memorial cross on public property because it violates my rights”. Bull hockey. I can see if someone came to you and said “you must contribute to the cost of this memorial cross”. Ok you might have a point about religious freedom. However, if a group agrees to bear the responsibility of cost for the memorial cross (which includes the cost of maintenance, construction and cleanup) but only wish to use public land then you have NO leg to stand on. In fact you are violating the rights and freedoms of those people. Public land is land that is held in common for the use of everyone. This includes people of faith. By denying them the use of the land you are discriminating against their freedoms. The rights to expression are a two way street. Forcing your world view on others through the courts is just as reprehensible as them forcing their world view on you. Grow up for goodness sake and learn to live with your neighbors. Quit being a selfish ass who must destroy the joy in others. Truly, does a memorial cross hurt you in any measurable way? If so then I want my money back from any taxes I paid to support your ideology. Since we can’t put up religious symbology then a bare piece of public land ipso facto represents an atheist and agnostic point of view. Pay up.

    • You maintain that religious symbols should be allowed on public property as long as it is not obligatory for someone who opposes them to pay for them. I agree. But, if you check the facts, the cross on Mt. Soledad was constructed with San Diego city money abd its upkeep over the years came from the city coffers. Whose money was used for these purposes? The public’s. And, once the property was turned over to the federal government, it’s still taxpayer money financing the cross. This is not a private icon. It has always been paid by taxpayers, whether they supporr it or not. In fact, over the years, opponents of the cross have always maintained that if it was sold to a private group, they then would have no objection to it. But, that hasn’t been the case.

      • The war on christianity is hotting up, you people will not stop so you bring the world closer to a final accounting, offended by a cross indeed.

      • You really care about the destination of public money and you keep track of all of it. So how are you managing with the $4,000,000,000,000 that your president has allowed to be printed, how are you giving this currency any value, how can you trust any man with that much money, the mind boggles. So you have no objection to public money being used to murder 50,000 babies each year?

      • Taxpayer money is used to build and to fly drones that fly over third world countries and fire missiles at groups of people, children included, that happen to be gathering to discuss village events. Do you like that use of your taxpayer money.?

      • Did you get to decide when your country outlawed firearms? The citizens in the US do not get to decide what the DOD spends its budget on, we only get to become pissed and irate when we see the bill for the toilet seats.

  5. How is it, that different groups, when offended by Christians, are offered a remedy by the courts, but when Christians are offended by these groups, there is no remedy forthcoming? How did Christians get left out of the loop? And , by the way , there is no Constitutional guarantee of Freedom from offense.

      • And Federal Land, as you have noted, is controlled by Federal Law, and the Constitution is Federal Law, and there is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits this monument from standing, and yes, others should be able to erect monuments if they want to, for the Constitution would not prohibit them either. Legally, the Federal Government would be ‘overstepping’ its bounds to demand that the structure be torn down on the ‘basis’ of ‘religious disagreement’.

      • The problem is that the group responsible for maintaining the monument is not allowing other symbols to be erected. If the group would have allowed it, there wouldn’t be an issue.

      • In that, I agree, they should not be so narrow minded. Federal Land should be open to any and all who would call themselves citizens of the United States.

      • Had God placed the monument, we would not be discussing it. God did not place the monument, and those who did are subject to the law, therefore it behooves them to act accordingly. I agree that God is Supreme, but we are talking about people and Federal lands.

      • If they act on behalf of God, then as his servants they should be free from hinderance. Just the same as anyone from the government is nothing more that a servant from an amalgamation of a group of people with their own opinions who only represent the concept of a government and they are flawed.

      • If a man, who acting as a servant of a higher authority, places a monument on any piece of ground then we can say the the servant, obeying the master, has done his masters will, so the master has caused the monument to be placed where it is but asked a servant to do so. That is how your government works, the law maker does not come personally to you but sends a servant.

      • How terrible, Christians do not want pagan symbols to be near the cross. Too bad. Remember that after you die and are refused entry into heaven.

      • I will go to where the Lord allows me to go, I do not ecxpect to meet you. Your wife apparently, wanted her picture removed from your ravings.

      • Are you ashamed of your face? You have changed your profile. So now the group maintaining the memorial is not allowing pagan monuments, thought it was federal land? Feds have given up on jurisdiction have they.?

      • No, I realized that I have had a Disqus account for several years and decided to merge them together. It uses the profile picture of the oldest account I have, which in this case is that of a tribal phoenix. I used this particular image as a profile picture for many, many years–almost two decades–and I prefer it as it is a metaphor of my life.

      • Jon, this is a reply to a comment made two weeks ago, a great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since then.

      • The earth and all that in them is, was created by god. So the US government has taken the land without permission, so the US is an illegal holder of the land.

      • Why the heck does it matter to you or anyone. You are offended by Christ. Christ is offended by you, you deny Christ, Christ will deny you to his father. end of story.

      • In seven days, God created the heavens and the Earth. It is His. You do not own it, you took it. Now pay your rent.

    • Because the courts are full of atheists as well. The biggest sin is commited by judges who judge people contrary to the teaching of Christ, Judge not, for as you judge, so shall yee be judged..( Courtesy of the KJV )

    • Pobably because the judges are pagans as well and have attended blood sacrifices in the Bohemian Grove, maybe they worship Moloch as well as smoking whoopee weed.

  6. I am offended every time I have to listen to what one of these idiots is screaming about now. What about our rights; what about the rights of the fallen soldiers and their families. They are the ones that should be telling everyone that their rights are being taken away; they should have the right to honor their loved ones however they chose. It’s TIME for us to say I’m OFFENDED—Leave the cross where it is and Leave the rest of us alone.

    • How about Christians leave the rest of us alone?

      Christians are the ones out there constantly trying to take rights of other people away, how many people are not able to get married because of Christianity? How many people are not able to adopt because of Christianity? How many women have lost rights to their own bodies because of Christianity? Millions and Millions of Americans are affected because Christians continue to push their hate toward other people.

      Yes, Christians, leave the rest of us alone.

      Nothing that the ACLU did affect individual rights, you want to put that monument on your own private land, then go for it, but this is government land.

      • I am truly sorry if you’ve had bad experiences with Christians, which have led you to believe that we’re pushing hate. It should be completely opposite. Christians are meant to be like Christ, and He wasn’t someone who preached hate. God gave everyone free will, and that means living as you so choose, with Him, or without Him. A Christians number one message should always be, “You are loved.” According to Christianity, none of us will ever be perfect. And Jesus said, “Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.”. That would be none of us. There only ever was and only ever will be one perfect man. And he paid for our imperfections. Unfortunately, there are some very radical “christians” who have given a bad name for all, and actually pushed people further from God, rather than bring them closer.

      • There would be a lot less people asking for this type of religious symbols to be removed from public land if people followed Christianity the way you describe, even if its was unconstitutional.

        The ACLU and other organizations are having to constantly fight in court against Christians who somehow feel they are perfect and know better how other people should live, conveniently ignoring verses from the bible such as “Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.”

        Those radical Christians you speak off are giving Christians a bad name, the gay community, and groups fighting for women’s rights have to depend on groups like ACLU to defend their rights against Christians.

        If Christians believed the way you described, I would be one of many to just ask for the support your efforts to keep the monument up, even if is unconstitutional just because it causes no harm. But with everything that has been going on in recent history, to many people Christian symbols do cause harm, that is the symbol being used to promote hate toward other people, something many people would never understand unless you are on the side.

        I am glad that even the Pope has realized the negative image that Christianity has and is working to improve the Image of Catholicism. And what is sad is that people are trying to discredit the Pope now for trying to do something about the image of Catholicism.

        I will be one of many who will be happy when this monument comes down, bringing this monument down is a sign of hope for many, that religion is losing the power it has been using for many years for oppression.

      • Yes, well I am a Christian and I hope you can see that not all of us, hopefully not most of us, are out to judge and condemn and point our “righteous fingers” in everyone else’s direction. I mean, the Bible says God gave His son for anyone who believes in Him, not to condemn them, but to save them. I say if Jesus wasn’t here to condemn, then who am I to point fingers? I’d have to look in the mirror and start with myself. I, of course, don’t want to see it come down, as I see it as a sign of hope. What I would like to see, is other Christians realize that they tend to go about things the wrong way and are causing people to run in the opposite direction of Christianity. I understand your frustration though. I see it every day.

      • God hates sin, does he tell us to love it? You expect other people to go about their business the way that you would. I go about my business the way I do, just like the anti Christians do, they do not hold their insulting tongues when they ask for a cross to be removed, a cross positioned before they were born. If they are offended by an easy traget, try their beligerence on another target, try to complain about Mount Rushmore.

      • No, you assume it to be but only because you are a pagan, saying you are a pagan does not give any credence to your choice. I proclaim Christ, but you reject Christ so I am in the same boat. But you object to the cross for reasons that you have not given, you are not interested in what your government spends, this leads deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole Alice, so do you take the red pill or not?

      • No, but He tells us to show love. Jesus was kind and loving. He healed the sick, and raised the dead. He was, and is, merciful. He paid our debt. There is no one here who is without sin, so I refuse to judge. I choose kindness and compassion, to set an example of what I believe God would want me to be. Again, He sent His son to save, not condemn. Do you think that your method of “insulting tongues” would lead anyone on a path to Jesus? Not saying that is what you’re aiming to do, but as a Christian, that is my end goal. Plant the seed, and let God deal with a person’s heart. And again, I would certainly never want a cross be removed, because I see it as a symbol of hope. It is a reminder of His love and ultimate sacrifice, made on behalf of every person.

      • In no way did Jesus expect his followers to be whipping posts, he expressed his displeasure at violence. However, the tongue is sharper than a sword and he made use of it to correct the ignorant, he used it as a tool to get his message across, he never forbade anyone to speak. Do not surrender to this bigot.

      • You have no arguement from me about that, but on several occasions, Jesus was frustrated with his disciples and by stupidity in general and at times he exlpoded, in the temple with the money changes and the seller of animals, claiming that they had turned his fathers house into a den of thieves. Now Jesus was perfect yet he could barely contain his anger, so how do we, who are not perfect, contain ours.

      • Initially I was angry, but I have had some time to cool off, I get mad when somebody really insults Christ, I know how he sufered and he did so for us, but you are correct, I must hold my anger in check. Jesus doesn’t need me to defend him.

      • BUt, Jesus got mad sometimes too. He used a WHIP in the temple. Of course he repented but He still got angry. And we are not Him. So don’t feel bad for getting angry. Anyway, I feel like if we don’t stand up and are tolerant and PC and go along with this perversion, we are complicit in it. I pray for them to go to Paradise but I fear for them that they won’t. Jesus knows who is his. I want to hear” GOOD JOB, faithful servant, sorry you don’t have your head attached anymore, but hey, you don’t need one here!” Keep fightin for Him even if He does not need it. He knows you care.

      • Do you think that Jesus would need to repent? yes, he got angry, we are only human after all in human form so he went to the temple and saw corruption, blatant corruption, he could not bear it as he was incorruptible so he knotted some cords together and drove them out of the temple, upsetting the tables of the money changers and releasing cages of animals and birds, saying “My house is a house of worship but yee have made of it a den of thieves.” Best thing to do is to avoid angering Jesus “

      • The people asking for the removal of the symbol of Christ are the people who do not want to be reminded of their failure. You think that being a Christian means to be mild and meek so that loudmouths like you can come and be insulting. So if Christians were to suck up top you , then you would not mind the monument. Was that monument erected in your lifetime, and if not, how dare you disgrace the memory of the men it represents. Go and complain about Mount Rushmore, see if you have any luck there.

      • Your argument is invalid. There are no religious symbols on Mount Rushmore, only presidential heads. The reasons the cross is to come down is that 1) it’s on federal property, 2) When erected it was dedicated to Christians, not veterans, and 3) the law says it does.

        If you disagree with my argument, please craft your own and present it with factual evidence.

      • I think that perhaps the Indians might disagree with you about Mount Rushmore, they may find it offensive, but they haven’t been asked, have they.

      • I believe the context we were speaking was with religion. But no, as an American Indian, I am not offended by Mt Rushmore either.

      • Your arguement is nonsense, I cannot believe that you travel the US inspecting government property and debating law with all and sundry, that makes no sense, were you as dedicated as you say then you would be demanding to see your president and demanding to know why he needed $4,000,000,000,000, that is whole lot more than any other American president ever had, so why did he need it and who did it go to. One thing is for sure, wiith that much money around, the tempation to take money is increased so do you think that by voting him to be your president, he has become completelty trust worthy.? You assign Christ like values to him then.

      • No matter how christians behaved, you would still lobby for the removal of the symbol that represented Christ, had you a chance, you would crucify him again, you are no different to foul mouthed commediens who brag about the cucifixion and say that they bwould do it again in an F***ing second, That from a Jewish woman, so they are in your camp as well.

      • Its going to be one happy day in this planed when religion finally disappears, just wonderful to see that every year more and more people are leaving religion behind.

        And I do have to say thank you for the Christians who are doing a better job at getting people to leave Christianity. You keep pushing your hate, and more and more people who disagree with your hate will be leaving religion. Good job!!!

      • You mean without Islam and the teachings of a sun struck pagan madman smoking whoopee weed in the desert. The hatred pouring out of Islam, with Friday afternoon public beheadings in the car park, you mean these people are losing followers in droves away from their blood drenched insanity? Well thank goodness, I was worried that they might outbreed the more sane among us, that they might infiltrate the west and outbreed us and take over using our rules of majority, that they might overtake the UK and the Netherlands and Belgium, that Germany might follow there path or Norway and Denmak, Sweden. So there is no reason for Moslems to go there and to rape blondes, what a relief, I had in mind that they might attack and decapitate soldiers in the in the street. And then we would not have to worry about blonde blue eyed women being raped and an Islamic perpetrator not being deported to where he came from because he might rape women of his own country, that would not happen at all, thank goodness for sanity. Now how to get rid of outragious Christians?

      • How many times will you repost your comments Frank? Bonney M had a hit years ago called Jet star to venus, but you are waiting for Jet star to Mars. Pack your soothing butt ointment Frank, its a long journey.

      • It means nothing Frank except that I was getting bored with the arguement but I have had a rest so continue. The song did exist though.

      • So now it is about the way Christians present themselves that gets up the nose of the whoopee weed smoking sun scorched desert dwelling pagans, so it is NOT about the gleaming white cross of Christianity.

      • Why bother to appologise ti this hate baiter, it is wasted, he doesn’t want to know, were he to meet Jesus, he would lose in an instant. The truth was introduced to the world and he has rejected it. He has made his decision.

      • We now come to the core of the issue, that of anti-Christians. Now Christian are accused of not leaving people alone, bearing in mind that European people came to the new world as Christians, imperfect Christians but Christians nevertheless and now you, a descendant of Christians, wish to be left alone. You were born in a country which was Christian by definition, when you reach the age of majority, did you take advantage of the fact that you were free to go wherever you wished and to go to any country that practiced atheism? China comes to mind. Now you are offended because you have a belief that same sex couples should be allowed to get married and Christians are against this. In society, marriage has been defined as Holy matrimony, so an atheist cannot complain that he may not be married in a church, it is a consequence of your belief, now as to adoption, you have not been looking very hard have you, you would have known, had you looked, that a homsexual couple permitted to marry adopted nine boys, and that this couple has now been charged with molesting the same. Now women, lost the right to their own bodies, this then is the fault of Christians is it. As a Christian or a non Christian, society has views which prohibit certain actions, you may not blow your brains out in public, society has a dim view of anybody blowing their brains out no matter where they are. Society will shoot you to prevent you from killing yourself. Women are not permitted abortion on demand or put another way, murder on demand.and you are incensed, Your generosity towards women is heartwarming, to think that you are the one to stand and demand that everyone shut up and everyone keep quiet because you will not allow for majority vote on the issue, the foundation of your democracy. Now for the creme de la creme. You said that millions of millions of Americans are denied their rights, are affected because Christians continue to push their hate? Yes, you say, Christians, leave the rest of us alone. I notice that you used a capital “C” for Christians. Now you want the cross to be moved to private land, a momument that was erected probably before you were born, so on that basis, if you were offended by Mount Rushmore, what would you suggest? Now to borrow from columnist kirsten Powers and the women who have lost the rights to their own bodies: And I quote “We’ve forgotten what belongs on Page One. (Photo: Yong Kim, AP)Story Highlights Butchering babies that were already born and were older than the state’s 24-week limit for abortions is the story. That one is murder and the other is a legal procedure is morally irreconcilable.This is not about being “pro-choice” or “pro-life.” It is about basic human rights. 251599 Infant beheadings. Severed baby feet in jars. A child screaming after it was delivered alive during an abortion procedure. Haven’t heard about these sickening accusations? It’s not your fault. Since the murder trial of Pennsylvania abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell began March 18, there has been precious little coverage of the case that should be on every news show and front page. The revolting revelations of Gosnell’s former staff, who have been testifying to what they witnessed and did during late-term abortions, should shock anyone with a heart. NBC-10 Philadelphia reported that, Stephen Massof, a former Gosnell worker, “described how he snipped the spinal cords of babies, calling it, ‘literally a beheading. It is separating the brain from the body.” One former worker, Adrienne Moton, testified that Gosnell taught her his “snipping” technique to use on infants born alive. Massof, who, like other witnesses, has himself pleaded guilty to serious crimes, testified “It would rain fetuses. Fetuses and blood all over the place.” Here is the headline the Associated Press put on a story about his testimony that he saw 100 babies born and then snipped: “Staffer describes chaos at PA abortion clinic.” “Chaos” isn’t really the story here. Butchering babies that were already born and were older than the state’s 24-week limit for abortions is the story. There is a reason the late Democratic senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan called this procedure infanticide.
        Planned Parenthood recently claimed that the possibility of infants surviving late-term abortions was “highly unusual.” The Gosnell case suggests otherwise. Regardless of such quibbles, about whether Gosnell was killing the infants one second after they left the womb instead of partially inside or completely inside the womb — as in a routine late-term abortion — is merely a matter of geography. That one is murder and the other is a legal procedure is morally irreconcilable. A Lexis-Nexis search shows none of the news shows on the three major national television networks has mentioned the Gosnell trial in the last three months. The exception is when Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan hijacked a segment on Meet the Press meant to foment outrage over an anti-abortion rights law in some backward red state. The Washington Post has not published original reporting on this during the trial and The New York Times saw fit to run one original story on A-17 on the trial’s first day. They’ve been silent ever since, despite headline-worthy testimony.

        OUR VIEW: If Plan B goes OTC, common sense suffers.

        OPPOSING VIEW: ‘Plan B’ contraception ruling correct.

        COLUMN: No woman should have to wait for Plan B Let me state the obvious. This should be front page news. When Rush Limbaugh attacked Sandra Fluke, there was non-stop media hysteria. The venerable NBC Nightly News’ Brian Williams intoned, “A firestorm of outrage from women after a crude tirade from Rush Limbaugh,” as he teased a segment on the brouhaha. Yet, accusations of babies having their heads severed — a major human rights story if there ever was one — doesn’t make the cut. You don’t have to oppose abortion rights to find late-term abortion abhorrent or to find the Gosnell trial eminently newsworthy. This is not about being “pro-choice” or “pro-life.” It’s about basic human rights. The deafening silence of too much of the media, once a force for justice in America, is a disgrace. Kirsten Powers is a member of USA TODAY’s Board of Contributors, a Fox News political analyst and columnist for The Daily Beast. In addition to its own editorials, USA TODAY publishes diverse opinions from outside writers, including our Board of Contributors. Now for your enjoyment from hateful Christians who oppose womens rights to murder their children.
        http://youtu.be/y9Vvfckoq8w

  7. Atheist have nothing to do with this. It’s the ACLU on behalf of the Jewish veterans that brought the case to court. Not everyone that dies for this country has Christian beliefs so why should they be memorialized with a Christian symbol? If anything, the symbol should be the American flag.

    • Smart man, he says that God should be replaced with the American flag, now go and write a new bible to go with this idea of yours.

      • No one is replacing god! The statement says to replace a religious symbol with an American symbol. Something that restricts the memorial to something that opens it up. Use common sense!

  8. It started out as cleaning up the Constitution to assure all special interest groups equal rights. But tripping over the tangled hairball of political correctness, we have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. It seems we have cowered in the fear of hypersensitivity, surrendered our common sense, and abandoned the foundations of our forefathers dream of Freedom..

  9. Please stop the stupidity. If you are offended, then don’t look or just get over it. Politically Correct is incorrect. There is no Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing anyone freedom from being offended. Just wish judges would apply whatever common sense they may have left. We are Americans and we are made of tougher stuff than the liberal wusses would have us believe.

    • You’re absolutely right, so when I put up a Pagan Circle next door to your house I don’t want to hear crap about it being offensive.

      • You may not have an issue with it, but it actually started a mini war here around Fort Hood when the FHOC was first created.

      • Your point? I just implied that I would not be offended by a Pagan Circle next to my house as i have explored aspects of that also and did indeed enjoy that exploration.

      • My point is that many people don’t share your sentiment about if it offends you then just don’t look at it. Here in Central Texas, when the Ft Hood Open Circle was created it sparked an outrage from the Christian community out here. No matter how many people say “if you don’t like it just ignore it,” the majority of the people will just ignore that statement.

      • I enjoy exploring many aspects of spirituality and looking for meaning in life…never know where that exploration will take you…I would not try to force my beliefs on anyone as I am still the process of discovering my own truths… I am in Texas also, by the way.

      • Gee, can I please ignore your statements? They are getting stale. (Don’t reply, no answer forthcoming)

      • When two people are equally committed then you reach an impasse. I beleve that God is the supreme force in the universe, you believe it is pagan. Mexican standoff.

      • I guess this whole thread was supposed to make some kind of sense. Please don’t reply to me unless you happen to be a nice person. Have a wonderful celebration of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ with your family, the Son of God who died for your sins. And mine, which are many.

      • I cannot say that I am nice, that is for others to judge, but you can see what I write and why I write it. It offends me that Jesus is rubbished by weed smoking fringe and desert dwelling loopies, but I live in hope that their eyes may be opened, especially for their sakes.

      • I was not implying you were not nice. I think you are very nice after I read more of your posts. This particular post was all out of time order and made no sense at all. I apologize if I offended you. I am you your side, friend. God Bless and I agree, may their eyes be opened so they can join us in paradise. Though sometimes I think they will end up with parasites.

      • No, you have not offended me, my hide is thicker than that. It is only stick and stones after all. Frank and Jon are running on overdrive.

      • Ronald, now that I have read another 2 of your posts, I do believe you were defending me! Well, thank you so much. I believe I will follow you. Feel free to follow me. Please don’t let little Jon get to you, once he does he is as hard as a barnacle to get rid of. I think it is hysterical he keeps calling me a man just because of my name. He is not the only one. It only makes everything else he and the other ones say totally not worth reading. I have asked him politely to leave me alone, to not answer me, to just go away, etc, but he won’t. Please don’t let that happen to you! God Bless and have a wonderful celebration of the birth of our Lord.

      • Well thank you Texan for Life, and a good afternoon to you, well here it is 3:21pm. I am pleased that we understand each other. But do not worry about Jon, he can’t get to me, not so long as God is with me. I have had the chance to practice with the Mormons who made a habit of visiting but became frustrated with my rebuttals. I can handle Jon and his weed smoking followers.

      • Mormons are good for a laugh, the elders who came around were young men out and about as their chruch requires so they came around with their book of mormom, I asked one of them, known as elder Matthew, if he would swear on the bible that the book of Mormon was true and then I let him have it, directing him to a passage in the bible, also in the book of Momon about the swearing of an oarth and how Jeus enjoined us to to do so, because when we swear an oath, it comes of evil. That shut elder Mattew up and for the rest of the visit we discussed guns and he would talk about where he went hunting. Every visit after that was the same and for any new boys doing the circuit he would bring them round to my place and they would all fall into the wearing of an oath trap, he never warned any of them. but elder Matthew went back to the states and was married. I rang him up one night, just to say hello, he was amazed and surprised, poor lad, he had a long day and it was 3:00 am the US when I rang him. Spoke to his father first who thought is was a great joke and gave me his home number, poor elder Matthew was tired and wanted to sleep but his wife was excited by it and her accent was so southern belle. What fun we had in those days.

      • The way the price of gold shot up to $1800.00! But I remember in the 70’s when it was only $35.00 an ounce. I wish I had known then.

      • Jon spent a long time in the military and has PTSD. Jon is part native Indian. He has spent along long time on his computer writing messages to me. Jon believes being a pagan will help him, he has had family troubles and is being blamed for all of it due to his army career. I am off, it is 5 minutes to midnight. Goodnight.

      • Ronald, it still does not give him the right to talk to people like he does. And so you know? I will have my Advance graduate diploma in CHristian COunseling in May specializing in PTSD. Board Certified soon after. So I deal with a lot of Jon’s. He still has no right to make fun of my husband or my sex or use profanity to me when I tried to be nice to him. Plus he will not listen when I asked him to stop. I understand his mental illness more than you know. Trust me on that. He needs to understand what a boundary is and when No means No.

      • People get hot under the collar for all sorts of reasons and I did not help with some of my comments. I tend to get annoyed when Christ is lambasted so openly and the accusations that are made against him, so suddenly all churches and believers are evil. Some of us read the bible and cetain pssages stand out, no matter what, you remember them and in my case I becoe irritated when they bring out a new version of the bible in modern english, in my mind, changing the wording and using modern terminology and dropping well used but, yes, ancient English words only compounds errors. Some common English words have no common modern words, or they do not accurately reflect the proper meaning, so rather than learn the proper meaning of a word, they try to use a modern that is not equivalent. Jon is an ex soldier. So is my brother, but then, he was a skunk from childhood, being in the army only made an alcoholic out of him. Having a drunkard in the family only leads to ruin, the smart ones are the ones that can recognise this.

      • You still haven’t actually figured out the message have you? No matter what anyone does, and for what reason, there will ALWAYS be someone offended by it.

      • Rather hot actyally. today it is 38 degrees celsius and tommorow pomises to be 40. Fortunately. I have air conditioning. So what did you do to be punished by God?

      • That is the trouble with human beings, they can be like terriers with a rat. But you are pagan, I believe in God, so what next? Pistols at dawn?

      • With people like you around I am not surprised that it created outrage. No other faith carries with it the message of redemption, but you choose to turn your back on it. Accept the consequences.

      • I wasn’t a part of the FHOC at the time. I was in Eastern Afghanistan while Allen West was in Southern Afghanistan.

      • You are actually what’s wrong with Christianity. There is sharing the word, then there is being an extremist. You sir are the latter.

      • Yet since I deny that your devil has any rights or control over me then your argument is useless and moot. I am Pagan, not Christian. Your devil is a Christian concept, not a Pagan one.

      • Now a pagan, no longer wiccan. God warned us to be wary of what we do and not to let idle thoughts distract us as what happened to Muhammed. An old thought from ancients times, Whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. So stay out of the desert and the sun, it gives delusions.

      • Please stop with the videos about how I should change my life and my personal beliefs and become Christian. They not only are offensive to others but show your lack tolerance towards others.

      • I showed you the video because I am constantly repeating myself to you and find it tiresome. if you find the video offensive then you have not been paying attention, so lets blame Jesus for being intolerant by dying on the cross, how dare he die that way and make everyone re-examine their credentials, shameful and shocking. Care to organise a petition and present it to God, care to put your complaint to God about the disgraceful manner in which Jesus allowed himself to be put to death out of his love for man who does not want to be saved ” Please stop with the videos about how I should change my life and my personal beliefs and become Christian. They not only are offensive to others but show your lack tolerance towards others.” The video comes a little too close to the truth and Jon does not want to hear about the truth.

      • I have not seen the devils resume Jon, so we will play this one by word, your word when the time is ripe.

      • Jon, just words mate, it doesn’t prove anything. you say wicca and other time you say pagan, these are just words and prove nothing. for all I know, you are a sunstruck loony who lives in a desert and believes that Allah is talking to him. But in one respect, God has abilities to know what is in your heart, so if you are playing a game, the outcome may surprise you.

      • Maybe not openly, but it does just that, Jesus warned of straying away from the one true God and that the devil was responsible for whispering into the ears of people causing them to do just that. If God is the creator, then he is supreme, there can be no other gods. If your faith as a pagan is correct then Islam as well as Buddhism and the hindus as well as any other faith would be wrong. So is it pagan or is it God?

      • You have failed to heed the message, poor you, but those who haven’t heard yet believe are entitled to come to the kingdom of heaven. You are barred.

      • You know what’s worse than being “barred?” The fact you keep trying to ram it down my throat means that, and according to the bible mind you, my blood in on YOUR hands for me not going. Enjoy your eternity of limbo.

      • So you seek to shift responsibility to me for your failure to understand the word of God and the teaching of jesus, I do believe that I act in good faith, that for evil to triumph, good men do nothing, God shall wash me clean, that is my earnest hope that I might be worthy.

      • Shows the amount of respect you have for your deity when you cannot capitalize its name. And I hate to say it but according to the bible, every person you have come into contact with and have not converted them over, you have their blood on your hands…

      • It should be obvious to anyone that Jesus is not the reason for the
        season but the excuse for the season, no one knows when he was born,
        that is why they stole from the pagans. Listen to Michael Rood, he will
        tell you what happened better than I could.

      • Go ahead but be mindful of the fact that God is watching, you cannot even blink without God knowing, you condemn yourself.

  10. Hogwash. This artticle is not only bigoted, but historically inaccurate. The cross was dedicated in 1954 and not one Veterans Day nor Memorial Day service was held there for four decades. Yet, each year, an Easter service was celebrated, proving that the cross was a religious symbol, not a veterans memorial. Plus, the first plaintiff in the case was not Philip Paulson. It was Howard Kreisner who filed it in 1989. In 1996, Kreisner moved out of state and a U.S. military veteran who was a citizen of San Diego had to be the plaintiff, hence Paulson came on board. I get a kick o0ut of West. He is holier-than-thou and preaces honesty, yet he practices deceit. In life, one should not alter facts to match his/her opinion; one should change his/her opinion to match facts. And, one of the plaintiffs in the current case is a member of the “Judeo-Christian” community whom West maintains is the backbone of the US. Plus, the attorney for the plaintiffs is not an atheist. This current ruling has nothng to do with atheists or atheism.

    • If what you say is true, then all your points are valid. Although, Allen West is referring to information given from the Mount Soledad Association, they would be the one’s that are inaccurate.
      So it seems. The Mount Soledad Association shot this arrow into the barn wall. Mr. West simply drew a ring around it.

      • I understand that West was relaying information given to him. But, he’s a journalist and should have enough integrity to check out information before he posts it. Again, one should form an opinion based on facts, not alter the facts to match his opinion. I am an author/journalist and I attempt to verify any citation, whether it fits my opinion or not. And, I’ve refused to use information that is not accurate on issues I agree with. The practice of journalism should be objective. I consider myself a journalist first and a person with political and religious views second. I do aplologize for being ambiguous on this issue and should have indicated that West was using someone else as a citation, yet I think he was sloppy in his not being skeptical.

      • West is not a journalist, he was a Congressman, a teacher of ANA officers in Kandahar, and before that my Battalion Commander who was relieved of command for saving the lives of our brigade. Otherwise, I agree with you.

      • A journalist, he has the ability to do good but he only pushes his barrow of anti’s and hate. So much hate for an innocent symbol for many men who died and no guf about pagans not wanting a cross. They knew that a cross would be erected in their memory and if they didn’t like it they shouldn’t have joined.

    • You back to join in with your hate baiter friend, how much you must hate Christ, There is a pleasure to all of this, knowing that you will not be permitted into heaven as heaven is perfect and you are not and never will be, And you are so perfect that you can say that others are not honest.

  11. That Christian symbol is very offensive to millions of people, its a symbol of hate and intolerance.

    We get reminded every day of how much time Christians are doing to affect others individual rights, pushing for laws against other peoples marriages, against women’s rights. ACLU did nothing against individuals rights, this is government land, you want to put this symbol in your own land, ACLU would have no right to stop it.

    I am tired of the Christians and their sense of entitlement, we are not a Christian nation, you need to play by the same rules as everybody else.

    Only reason you are complaining about this is because it is a symbol of your religion, we all know if it belonged to any other religion that Christians would be in total agreement.

    Soon the Oklahoma’s capitol will have a Satanic and Hindu monument, or none at all including the removal of the 10 amendments. Same rules for everybody.

      • We won’t have to look at it for very long because its coming down.

        This is an offensive symbol, If this was on private land, there is nothing the ACLU or I could say about it, but this is government land.

      • Government land that sits there and does nothing and it does not get one penny from the government, What is it that offends you so much. Are you really offended that easily, my God you must be pathetic that 1 line going up and 1 crossing it offends you. I think you just hate to see someone else getting pleasure out of it and you don’t. Sad little man you must be.

      • Larry, a very sad and lonely little man. How sad it must be to rise each morning and know that is the best you are going to feel all day, to have no hope in the future and to not have the love of Christ living in your heart. I feel sadness and pity more than anything. But, I will pray for poor Frank H, that he may someday find that love that surpasses all understanding. God BLess and have a wonderful CHRISTmas celebration!

      • Please, don’t bother repeating the origins of Christian holiday dates, I know why they have certain holidays, the pagan dates are linked to seasonal variations or have been pinched from pagans but only the date so what is your point, do you wish to try to explain that people are dis-honest?

      • So you freely admit the Jesus is NOT the reason for the season. I am proud of you Ronny, you are starting to learn.

      • Michael explains how so many people who claim the Christian faith do everything except practice the Christian faith and how they delve into other domains for their holy days. they do not realise what their church has done or why and rather than read the bible for themselves they rely on priests to do it for them. Now on a matter of importance no-one can make those decisions for you, you must decide for yourself.

      • Seriously? For the sake of yourself I suggest you REALLY look into the meaning of the cross because there’s MUCH more behind that symbol than just that. For Pagans, the Christian cross is not a symbol of love nor a promise of eternal life.

      • I find you offensive. Can you be removed? Can I ask you be taken out of my sight because you offend me. Of course not, silly. The Constitution says nowhere you have the right not to be offended. Of course, it does not say you don’t have the right to be stupid either. (Don’t reply, you will not be answered)

      • You know what is offensive? People like you trying to force their own opinions onto every body else. THAT IS OFFENSIVE.

      • People are free to believe what ever they want to believe, but we have separation of church and state.

        If this memorial was in private land, there would be nothing the ACLU could say about it, but this is government land and why it must go.

      • You keep coming and going Frank. You hate Christians, you hold Christians responsible for every evil that has befallen the world. You keep rambling about government property, don’t you get it Frank, God created the heavens and the earth and all that in then is, not your government, they have just taken what is not rightfully theirs. God shares, Jesus shares but man seeks to profit. God has every right to have a memorial anyewhere he wishes, there is no authoriy anywhere and never will be any authority that can challenge this, you are just a lost soul, imagining a planet all to your self and the bum boys, with the only difference being that pagans who sacrifice their babies to Moloch will share it with you. sart on a new business venture Frank, start producing a soothing ointment, a butt ointment, it will be a top seller in your world.

      • You should really read your Bible, and I mean the whole Bible.

        You bring up Paganism, but Christianity says almost the same thing Isaiah 14:21.

        More wars have been caused in the name of religion than for any other reason, History doesn’t show Christianity to be a peaceful religion.

        Unless someone can bring proof that your particular god exists, then we have to go with what the law says.

      • When the effects of sunstoke and the effects of the whoopee weed that you have been smoking wear off, then continue this discussion. Read the bible you say, the whole bible and then you bury your nose in Isaiah. Your rant is about Christianity, but you look everywhere but the new testament. Name one incident of violence against anyone one anywhere at anytime that can be attributed to Christ.

      • So what you are saying, is that I should ignore most of the Bible? The old testament is almost 60% of the Bible.

        Oh, that Christianity is peaceful because we choose to ignore more than half of the book we use to justify our religion.

        The way you put it, anybody can say that Islam is a religion of peace, just ignore the parts of the Koran that promote violence.

      • A Christian learns from the new testament what Jesus is teaching. Sometimes it referes to the old testament. Muhammed clearly states that the last entry in the Koran over rules every thiing else, it is the ramblings of a madman.

      • Of course if you ignore part of the Bible, you can then try to make Christianity sound peaceful, same goes for Islam.

        But history will show that in reality neither Christianity or Islam are peaceful, just one of many reasons why it is so important to keep church and state separated.

      • The god in the Bible advocated a lot of violence, you are just choosing to ignore those parts of the Bible to make Christianity peaceful.

      • I choose to read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they deal wirth Christ, that is why I say that I am a Christian. The old testament declares that man shall sacrifice animals to God as payment for sin, Jesus said that burnt offerings were a stench in the nostrils of God.

      • Tell that to the dozens of Christians that daily go around and knock on doors telling people that if they don’t convert they’ll go to Hell.

      • I have had them know on my door but if you don’t want to listen to them, tell them, they will go away, never had anything forced on me.

      • Then why is it the same people every single time at my door even when they have been told to leave me alone. I had to file a restraining order against that church for them to leave me alone and quit knocking on my door.

      • sorry to hear those church people kept returning. just curious, what church? And besides, they don’t have to power to change your heart or mind anyway.

      • CHOP and Gateway, both Christian churches in the area. The only ones who actually respected my wishes were the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

        I ended up moving 30 miles from that area.

      • Easy to get rid of, use their own ammunition against them. Moving 30 miles is a bit drastic. So there is the reason for your anger.

      • Do you REALLY want me to debate the bible with you Sir? You pick the topic then. Once we have finished it, I will pick the next.

      • Sorry but they said they were from the Baptist church up the road as well as a group from the Episcopalian church the other way. Nice try though.

      • Dastic action, you cannot get someone to leave you alone, damn, we have Mormons, Jehova’s witnesses and all sorts. No need for court action.

      • It is when every single day you have the same people coming by at the same time from the same churches and they know they are not welcome. I’m also in Texas where I can legally shoot to kill those who walk onto my property after being told to leave; I was generous to just give them a restraining order.

      • And of course, tell that to the Muslims who in their religion of peace and tolerance go around all day beheading people with butter knives, burning people alive, beating them, stoning them, raping women because they are inferior, marrying and raping little girls,female genital mutilation, genocide, burning Christians alive in their churches and now the truth coming out that they have KURU in Syria, which is a disease caused by eating humans. Oh, and telling people that if they don’t convert to Islam they must pay up AND if they don’t, getting their heads cut off with a butter knife, And Jehovah Witnesses are not main stream Christians, if they are at all. Educate yourself – Just because someone SAYS they are a Christian, does mean they are, Christians are known by the fruit in their lives just as standing in a used car lot does make one a use car. (Please do not reply, you will not be answered) Merry CHRISTmas as we celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior (yours, also, if you accept Him into your heart and give up your fear.)

      • What an illogical response. I have heard many Christians who oppose homosexuality decry any public showing of affection between homosexuals. Why don’t they use the same logic that you used here: If you don’t like them holding hands or hugging each other, doin’t look at them. See, we now have another major cultural problem fixed.

      • I am Christian and I voted for gay marriage and that is the law in my state now. I am a Christian that believes in everyones rights. Do like the cross don’t look at it. Hows that.

      • Because Mr Malcom, that would be indecent behaviour and a provocation. Perhaps you would care to have your leaders behaving like a Caesar, who dressed as an effeminate whore and prostitued himself on the steps of the senate in Rome.

      • Acording to God, the cross is not offensive, but homosexuality is an ABOMINATION to God. That why we do not use illogical reasoning.

      • If people gave smallpox infested blankets to the Indians then they were not Christians, no matter what they may have claimed.

    • The USA was built on Christianity, it’s on our money,our Government buildings. Why do you think that is if our country was not built Christianity? What fools you people are! 80% of people in our country are still Christians. I still pray for all of you, because someday will be very sorry………..

      • Its basic history,

        Europeans brought Christianity and forced the real native Americans to Christianity and away from their original believes.

      • No, there was force in it. The immigrants killed those who didn’t switch over (be it intentionally or accidentally) and even some who did.

      • Jon’s version of history, so platoons of priest stormed Indian encampments and put a gun to the head of Indians and shot those who didn’t comply.

      • And Christmas was originally outlawed in Boston. The fact is that the memorial is on federal land and is thus subject to Separation of Church and State. If you have an issue with it, talk Congress into repealing Public Law 109-272 and purchase the land yourself.

      • Wandering the length and breadth of the land, he bumps into Boston, where puritans outlawed Christmas, Aha. he thinks to himself……er….um……gee whizzzzzzz…..

      • Are you drunk? Is that seriously all you got from that statement? You really must be bored or you are trying to start an argument.

    • We ARE a Christian nation. YOU are an outlander. Assimilate or leave. Our nation was founded on the Christian faith and is why we became so great! Wallow in your nothingness if you prefer, but don’t mess with Who owns this land and its people – Christ Almighty!

      • This nation was founded by Puritans who knew that people believed in different religions. If you want to say it was Christians, be my guest, but t was also founded on Masonic principles too. And FYI, Christmas and many of the “Christian” holidays and symbols were outlawed in the majority of the original 13 colonies. I have a feeling that you still celebrate those holidays and use those symbols though.

      • Is America a Christian Nation?

        CARL PEARLSTON

        Is
        America a Christian nation? The answer is both yes and no, depending on what
        one means by the phrase.

        Independence
        Hall

        The use of Christian religious
        references in the recent Presidential Inauguration prayers has served to reopen
        the debate over religion in America’s public life. Professor Alan Dershowitz
        led off with an article strongly objecting that America wasn’t a Christian
        nation; Boston Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby replied that it certainly was. Who
        is right? Is America a Christian nation? The answer is both yes and no,
        depending on what one means by the phrase.

        When President Harry Truman wrote to
        Pope Pius XII in 1947 that “This is a Christian nation.”, he
        certainly did not mean that the United States has an official or
        legally-preferred religion or church. Nor did he mean to slight adherents of
        non-Christian religions. But he certainly did mean to recognize that this
        nation, its institutions and laws, was founded on Biblical principles basic to
        Christianity and to Judaism from which it flowed. As he told an Attorney
        General’s Conference in 1950, “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws
        was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights
        comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and Saint Matthew, from Isaiah and
        Saint Paul. I don’t think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don’t have
        a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a
        totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the
        State.”

        Woodrow Wilson, in his election
        campaign for President, made the same point: “A nation which does not
        remember what it was yesterday, does not know what it is today, nor what it is
        trying to do. We are trying to do a futile thing if we do not know where we
        came from or what we have been about…. America was born a Christian nation.
        America was born to exemplify that devotion to the tenets of righteousness
        which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture.”

        The crucial role of Christianity in
        this nation’s formation is not without dispute, although as Revolutionary
        leader Patrick Henry said: “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too
        often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians;
        not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason
        peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of
        worship.”

        John Ashcroft was roundly criticized
        for his “No King but Jesus” speech at Bob Jones University, but he
        was only reminding us of our colonial and Revolutionary War heritage. In a 1774
        report to King George, the Governor of Boston noted: “If you ask an
        American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but
        Jesus Christ.” The pre-war Colonial Committees of Correspondence soon made
        this the American motto: “No King but King Jesus.” And this sentiment
        was carried over into the 1783 peace treaty with Great Britain ending that war,
        which begins “In the name of the most Holy and Undivided Trinity…
        .”

        Samuel Adams, who has been called
        ‘The Father of the American Revolution’ wrote The Rights of the Colonists
        in 1772, which stated: “The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be
        best understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of the Great
        Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly
        written and promulgated in the New Testament.”

        It is frequently asserted by those
        seeking to minimize Christianity’s central role in our nation’s founding and
        history, that the founders themselves were not practicing Christians, but
        rather were Deists or Agnostics. In a 1962 speech to Congress, Senator Robert
        Byrd noted that of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 29 were
        Anglicans, 16-18 were Calvinists, and among the rest were 2 Methodists, 2
        Lutherans, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 lapsed Quaker-sometimes Anglican, and only 1
        open Deist — Benjamin Franklin who attended all Christian worships and called
        for public prayer.

        Samuel Chase was a signer of the
        Declaration of Independence, a Justice of the US Supreme Court, and, as Chief
        Justice of the State of Maryland, wrote in 1799 ( Runkel v Winemiller):
        “By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established
        religion… .” (Maryland was one of nine States having established
        churches supported by taxpayers at the time of the adoption of the
        Constitution; these churches were gradually disestablished, the last in 1833.
        The Maryland constitution, typical of many of the States, restricted public
        office to Christians until, in 1851, it was changed to allow Jews who believed
        in a future state of rewards and punishments to also serve).

        Christianity pervaded the laws and
        the legal system of the States and the federal government. For example, Judge
        Nathaniel Freeman in 1802 charged Massachusetts Grand Juries as follows:
        “The laws of the Christian system, as embraced by the Bible, must be
        respected as of high authority in all our courts… . [Our government]
        originating in the voluntary compact of a people who in that very instrument
        profess the Christian religion, it may be considered, not as republic Rome was,
        a Pagan, but a Christian republic.” In 1811 ( People v Ruggles),
        New York Chief Justice James Kent held: “‘…whatever strikes at the root
        of Christianity tends manifestly to the dissolution of civil government… .’
        We are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted
        upon Christianity… . Christianity in its enlarged sense, as a religion
        revealed and taught in the Bible, is part and parcel of the law of the land…
        .” In 1824, the Pennsylvania Supreme court held ( Updegraph v The
        Commonwealth): Christianity, general Christianity, is and always has been a
        part of the common law…not Christianity founded on any particular religious
        tenets; not Christianity with an established church, but Christianity with
        liberty of conscience to all men… .”

        Our sixth President, John Quincy
        Adams said “From the day of the Declaration…they [the American people]
        were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel,
        which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct”

        John Jay, the first Chief Justice of
        the US Supreme Court said: “Providence has given to our people the choice
        of their ruler, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of
        our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” This
        was said despite the explicit provision in the federal Constitution forbidding
        any religious test for federal public office.

        Justice Joseph Story, who was
        appointed to the US Supreme Court by President Madison, said in an 1829 speech
        at Harvard: “There never has been a period of history, in which the Common
        Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundation.” Story
        wrote several respected treatises or Commentaries on Constitutional Law, in
        which are found the following: “Probably, at the time of the adoption of
        the Constitution, and of the [First] Amendment…the general, if not the
        universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive
        encouragement from the State so far as was not incompatible with the private
        rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship. Any attempt to level
        all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter
        indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal
        indignation.”

        “The real object of the First
        Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or
        Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry
        among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of
        the national government”.

        Justice Story wrote for a unanimous
        Supreme Court in 1844 ( Vidal v Girard’s Executors): “It is also
        said, and truly that the Christian religion is a part of the common law…
        .”

        In 1854, The United States House of
        Congress passed a resolution: “The great vital and conservative element in
        our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths
        of the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

        During the Civil War, The Senate
        passed a resolution in 1863: “…devoutly recognizing the supreme authority
        and just government of Almighty God…encouraged …to seek Him for succor
        according to His appointed way, through Jesus Christ, the Senate …does hereby
        request the President …to set aside a day for national prayer and
        humiliation.” President Lincoln promptly issued a Proclamation Appointing
        a National Fast Day, stating “…in compliance with the request and fully
        concurring in the view of the Senate… .”

        The US Supreme Court forbade
        polygamy in 1890 (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints v United
        States): “It is contrary to the spirit of Christianity and the
        civilization which Christianity has produced in the Western world.” Two
        years later, the Court, by Justice Brewer, approvingly cited many of the
        earlier cases cited above, discussed the history and prominent role of religion
        in laws, business, customs, and society, and held (Church of the Holy
        Trinity v United States): “…this is a religious people. This is
        historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour,
        there is a single voice making this affirmation… . These, and many other
        matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the
        mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian Nation… .we find
        everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth.”

        Congress in essence summarized all
        this preceding history when it passed a Joint Resolution designating 1983 as
        The Year of the Bible, stating: “Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has
        made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and
        blessed nation and people; …deeply held religious convictions springing from
        the Holy scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation; …Biblical
        teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our
        Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States….designate
        1983 as a national ‘Year of the Bible in recognition of both the formative
        influence the Bible has been for our Nation, and our national need to study and
        apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures”. In 1988, a Joint Resolution
        of Congress declared that the first Thursday in May of each year is to be a
        National Day of Prayer.

        The historical record from the
        foregoing quotes from past Presidents, leaders, Congressmen, Jurists and court
        decisions, seems firmly on the side of those claiming that America was born and
        maintained as a Christian nation whose laws, morals, and customs derive from
        Christian (and Jewish) scriptures. The opponents of this view, however, point
        to the first sentence of Article 11 of the obscure Tripoli Treaty of 1797 as
        seeming conclusive proof that America was never a Christian nation. Before
        discussing that critical sentence, the treaty itself should be read in context
        with all of the Barbary treaties.

        The Barbary States on the coast of
        North Africa, comprising the Moslem States of Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and
        Tripoli, attacked ships in their coastal waters which would not pay tribute,
        and held captives for ransom. The European nations had treaties with those
        states, under which, in exchange for tribute, shipping was protected. After the
        Revolutionary War, our new nation followed the lead of those European nations
        and entered into similar treaties. Breach of those treaties by the Barbary
        nations led to the Barbary wars in 1801.

        The first treaty was with Morocco in
        1786, negotiated by Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin. It was written in Arabic
        with an English translation. The treaty language assumes that the world was
        divided between Christians and Moors (Moslems), e.g. “If we shall be at
        war with any Christian Power … .”, “… no Vessel whatever
        belonging either to Moorish or Christian Powers with whom the United States may
        be at War … .”, “…be their enemies Moors or Christians.”
        These along with numerous references to God, e.g., “In the name of
        Almighty God,”, “… trusting in God …”, “Grace to the
        only God”, “…the servant of God …”, “… whom God
        preserve …”. are the only references to religion in this treaty of Peace
        and Friendship.

        The next was the Treaty of Peace and
        Amity with Algiers in 1795,written in Turkish. The only reference to religion
        was in Article 17 which gave the Consul of the United States “… Liberty
        to Exercise his Religion in his own House [and] all Slaves of the Same Religion
        shall not be impeded in going to Said Consul’s house at hours of prayer…
        .” The Consul’s house was to function in lieu of a Christian church.

        The Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and
        Navigation with Tunis in 1797 was in Turkish with a French translation. It
        begins “God is infinite.”, and refers to the Ottoman Emperor
        “whose realm may God prosper”, and to the President of the United
        States “… the most distinguished among those who profess the religion of
        the Messiah, ….” Other than a reference to “the Christian
        year”, there is no further mention of religion.

        The Treaty of Peace and Friendship
        with Tripoli was signed in 1796 in Arabic, and was later translated into
        English by Joel Barlow, United States Consul General at Algiers. Except for the
        typical phrases “Praise be to God” and “whom God Exalt”,
        there is no reference to religion other than the aforesaid remarkable Article
        11, which reads,

        “As the government of the
        United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,
        as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or
        tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any
        war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan (sic) nation, it is declared by
        the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce
        an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

        The treaty, with this language, was
        submitted to the Senate by President Adams, and was ratified. Thus, opponents
        of the ‘Christian nation’ concept point to this seemingly official repudiation
        of the very idea. Yet the language is less a repudiation of the role of
        Christianity in the nation’s heritage than a reminder that there was no
        national established church in the United States as there was in the European
        states with which Tripoli had previously dealt. This provided reassurance to
        the Moslem Bey and his religious establishment that religion, in of itself,
        would not be a basis of hostility between the two nations. None of the other
        similar treaties with the Barbary states, before or after this treaty,
        including the replacement treaties signed in 1804 after the Barbary Wars, have
        any language remotely similar.

        And there is a deeper mystery: As
        noted in a footnote at page 1070 of the authoritative treatise by Bevans, Treaties
        and other International Agreements of the United States of America, citing
        treaty scholar Hunter Miller.

        “While the Barlow translation
        quoted above has been printed in all official and unofficial treaty collections
        since 1797, most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that
        Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase ‘the government of
        the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian
        Religion.’ does not exist at all. There is no Article 11. The Arabic
        text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and
        flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha
        of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the
        Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery
        and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the
        time throws any light whatever on the point” (Emphasis added)

        In sum, the phrase was no doubt an
        invention of Mr. Barlow, who inserted it on his own for his own, unknown,
        purposes. It was duly ratified without question by the United States Senate,
        which would no doubt be hesitant to object to any phraseology which was
        represented as desired by the Bey of Tripoli, with whom the United States
        wanted peaceful relations. It remains a mystery.

        Can America still be called a
        Christian nation? It is certainly a more religiously pluralistic and diverse
        society than it was during the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. There are
        increasing numbers of non-Christians immigrating to this country, and there has
        been a rapid rise in adherents to Islam among our population. There are
        millions of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Unitarians, Hindus, Wiccans,
        Naturists, Agnostics, and Atheists, but Christians comprise roughly 84% of the
        population. Our constitutional legal system is still based on the
        Jewish/Christian Bible, not the Koran or other holy book. We still observe
        Sunday, the Christian Sabbath, as an official holiday. Easter and Christmas
        still have a special place in the holiday lexicon. The Ten Commandments are
        still on the wall behind the Supreme Court Justices when they take the bench.
        Our coins still display the motto “In God We Trust.” The US is still
        firmly part of a Western Civilization fashioned by a Judeo-Christian religious
        ethic and heritage. Alexis de Tocqueville observed more than a century and a
        half ago, “There is no country in the world, where the Christian religion
        retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America.” That
        is still true today. We live, not under a Christian government, but in a nation
        where all are free to practice their particular religion, in accommodation with
        other religions, and in accordance with the basic principles of the nation,
        which are Christian in origin. It is in that sense that America may properly be
        referred to as a Christian nation.

        ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

        Pearlston, Carl “Is America a
        Christian Nation.” Connecticut Jewish Ledger (April, 2001)

        Reprinted with permission of Carl
        Pealston.

        THE AUTHOR

        Carl Pearlston is an attorney in the
        Los Angeles area, specializing in arbitration/mediation, a former professor of
        Constitutional Law, an Annapolis graduate, and a Jewish conservative active in
        various organizations including Toward Tradition.

        Copyright © 2001 Carl Pearlston

      • I assume you have been want to post that for a while, yes? Let me clear this up really easy. The memorial is on Federal Land. The ACTUAL religion of this nation is Constitutionalism as the nation itself is not a physical entity but a belief that holds us together via our National Constitution.The National Constitution states that all religions are to be treated equal with no preference to any one religion. This creates the Separation of Church and State. Since the memorial is, according to Public Law 109-272 from August 2006, on federal land, the religious symbolism must be removed or symbols of all other religions within this nation are placed there with the same size and materials. As the later is not possible due to the size of the land in question and the amount of symbolism that would be required, the former is the quickest and cheapest answer.

      • Yes, had been waiting for a sucker like you to share the truth with. Get over it. You’re immersed in Christianity, everywhere you look. Enjoy the scenery buddy. It’ll be here the rest of your meaningless life.

      • Hate to tell you but it’s because of people like me that you can even say the crap you are. By this I mean that I have spent the last 11 years in service to this nation and I now have a body that is almost completely destroyed for a bible thumper to tell me that because I believe in a faith that preexisted theirs that I am wrong.

        Let me give you advice, your own religious text states to leave other religions alone and not to worship their idols. It says to witness but not to force your beliefs on them. It also says that you are to be peaceful yet your religion has more bloodshed in its history than anything that Islam has come near. I’m not immersed in Christianity, This nation is immersed in freedoms that I and my brothers and sisters in arms fight daily to keep safe so people like you can tell us we are wrong. To say my life is without meaning is to say that you have no foundation in your ability to have your choice of religion which essentially means that you believe you have right to worship your own god.

        One more thing, While 80% of the nation may identify themselves as Christian, only 36% of those actually practice their faith.Meaning, that only 28.8% of this nation actually is Christian. Chew on that for a while.

      • As an side, I actually served with LTC West and endorsed him several times over the past decade for Congress. If my life truly was meaningless, then what was his and why did he save mine?

      • Good question. Maybe because he felt a Christian obligation to do so, maybe he is a man of faith and believed that your life had a value? Perhaps he had compassion and the love of Jesus in his heart.

      • He saved my life by placing an Iraqi’s head over a cleaing barrel and firing two rounds beside it. Pretty Christian huh?

      • Jon, you sound like you think only atheist fought for those rights, I spent 7 years in the army, 2.5 years of those in Vietnam. Maybe thousands of years ago Christians did some pretty bad thing but just like islam today, it is not the Christians that did it. It was the radicals. To compare Christian of a few thousand years ago is pretty stupid I think. People did not think the same then as now and one day will not think as they do today.
        I have nothing against any religion putting up a memorial to the soldier that gave it all and that includes the atheist. If it is on federal land that’s fine as long as they maintain the memorial with donations like this one does. Let them find their own Mt. top to put it on, first come gets the Mt.
        I am a Christian and I do not go to church, is that what you call pratice it. I don’t believe in church or the pope being God rep here on earth, but I am still a Christian. I still don’t get those figures, your math shows how much you really know. 36% practice it and that means 28% are actually Christians. If 36% practice it wouldn’t that mean AT LEAST 36% are Christian or are the other 8% just doing it to pass the time?

      • I said that 36% of the 80% of Americans that identify themselves as Christian attend services, therefore there is 28.8% of the nation that actually follow the commandments set forth in the bible. I would dig further but I am bored with the whole debate so I won’t pull out the scripture references. I never said anything about atheists at all. I said that I am a Pagan Veteran and that there should either be a symbol from each religion up there, or none. The tearing down of the one is going to be cheaper in the end because there are HUNDREDS of religions.

        The fact of the matter is that legally no religious emblems should be there. The memorial is on federal land, not private land, not public land.

      • You really worry about the legal issue, I take it that you have never ever broken the speed limit or had one too many and still got into the car anyway, how many thousands of laws do you think have been passed over the years and you mean to tell everyone that you have been compliant with all of them, that in your life you have never broken any law. You are a rare species, have fun with the Neanderthals.

      • I actually do not drink, it makes it very difficult to control my PTSD. As mentioned in another post, I have sped and I do have a reckless driving. Both were from when I fell asleep behind the wheel. I’m starting to believe that the Neanderthals were much more observant and intellectually stimulating than you are.

      • I learned that over a decade ago. The Neanderthals are long since gone with a few whose genetics live on in a few people of this world… They all have a large, sloping cranium, similar to yours as a matter of fact. Sadly, scientists say they had little ability to speak in coherent sentences and that they had much less intelligence than modern man.

      • Your faith predated Christianity, so what was the groovy Neanderthal into? Not sure what you mean by the gobbledegook of your sentence. So for 11 years you have been doing something important. great.The facts speak for themselves, no Christian did anything to any one, certainly not with blood lust in mind. Islam however, glorifies in blood letting and that is part of their teaching that and Paedophilia and marrying childeren, beating their wives etc, all allowed in the Koran.

      • I am afraid that his life is not meaningless but yours may well be, so what, do you imagine will happen after this life is over? Progress towards anything? Nothing? Boy, what a bummer.

      • Nothing says others have to be put on the SAME land, let them have their piece of land and maintain it as this one is done. I am a Christian and have no problem with that at all.

      • The law says it’s a memorial to ALL veterans. It cannot be a memorial to all if there is a religious symbol for one. Look at the Arlington headstones and you may understand.

      • And of course the law must be upheld at all cost. Funny but you seem a choosy about the law. How many have you violated.

      • Contrdicting yourself are we and after posting this work I would have thought that it was obvious that the US was a Christian nation, your founders seemed to think so.

      • There is nothing contradicting up there. This nation was founded by Puritans and the de facto religion of America is Constitutionalism; it is a belief that holds us all together as a nation.

      • You have removed your letter about Rommel, I know he was a member of the nazi party, they all had to be, he was a Field Marshal. He was not a war criminal. Now to pre-empt you, abortions kill babies, that is what happens in abortion clinics so using the name foetus or virus doesn’t change anythig. Live, living babies are pulled out of the womb piece by piece, they are murdered by the abortionist who finisheds up by crushing the skull.

      • Hey, Ronald, I know it is hard, so hard, but ignore little Jon. He LOVES to argue on and on and on ad nauseum until it makes you want to stick your head in the dishwasher. Don’t get caught up with him. Hey, I am more fun, follow me!

      • It is funny how my inbox keeps filling up no matter how many timess I answer Frank or Jon, They must have all of their comments on random sort and are sending them out non stop, some I dont even bother with, especially the one liners. How are you Texan for Life, nice to hear from a friend.

      • i’m ok. One day 80 one day 30. Kills my pain numbers. They skyrocket and up goes the morphine which makes me a zombie. My husband says hey how can I tell. Funny man!! Love him silly. Good to hear from you to , my buddy and pal. Don’t get any burrs under your saddle.

      • Last time I tried to ride a horse was about 50 years ago, they gave me a quiet one, yeah, sure they did, he read up high. Is it that bad that you need morphine? Sorry to hear it lass. Must send a word to the boss, maybe he will inetervene. Now that is something learned from your westerns, putting a burr under the saddle, instant demount.

      • And that’s OK, they were originally Pagan holidays. Don’t believe me? Do the research.

        Secondly, are they celebrating the commercialization of the holiday or the religious significance of it?

      • Your opinions no longer matter. I’m starting to actually get angry which is a bad thing for my PTSD. I ask that you quit trying to force your beliefs down my throat; if not I will figure out a way to block your uninformed vomit of replies from affecting others’ freedoms.

      • I do believe that you said that you will figure out a way to block my comments, do you intend to remove my tongue?

      • Removing your fingers would be a better alternative as that is how most people type. If you are using a speech-to-text engine, then removing your tongue would have worked. But alas, I am speaking about the digital blocking, a method of making it where I cannot see you and you cannot see me, digitally of course.

      • Hate hate hate, it really gets up your nose that people like their Christian tradition. You don’t have to worry about that though, you get a ticket straight to hell.

      • Ronald, I don’t think the proprietor of that very hot place would even consider this guys resume. Although, he night fall down into the ninth level, Dante said it very COLD there!

      • For 10,000 years, the geographical area we call the US was inhabited by Indians who had their own governments, political alliances and trade routes. In my opinion, the colonialists were the outsiders.

      • So…What about it? So your ancestors were a part of an invasion force, maybe grandfather was in the cavalry and murdered indians. Not my problem.

    • Good thing there are no atheists who practice hatred and intolerance, or do anything that might be offensive to other people. We can tell that anybody who looks out for equal rights for Satanic rituals has the best interests of all in his heart.

      • Please do some research on that one… Actual Satanists like Levi (the guy who founded the religion) and his followers DON’T worship Satan but view the human body as holy.

      • You have a contradiction in that sentence. So which is it because Crowley wasn’t a Satanist, he studied the occult and helped create the Thelmic branch of Wicca. Satanism is a synthesized system of LaVey’s understanding of human nature and the insights of philosophers who advocated materialism and individualism. for which he claimed no supernatural or theistic inspiration

      • Aleister Crowley (/ˈkroʊli/; 1875–1947), born Edward Alexander Crowley, was an English occultist, ceremonial magician, poet, and mountaineer. He was responsible for founding the religion and philosophy of Thelema, in which role he identified himself as the prophet entrusted with guiding humanity into the Aeon of Horus in the early 20th century.

        Born to a wealthy evangelical Christian family known as the Plymouth Brethren, Crowley came to reject this faith to embrace western esotericism, poetry, and mountaineering. He was educated at Cambridge University, where he embraced his bisexuality. Some biographers have claimed that he was recruited as a spy for British intelligence there, a role they allege he maintained throughout his life. In 1898 he joined the esoteric Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, before moving to Boleskine House by Loch Ness, and travelling to Mexico and India to study Hindu and Buddhist practices. He married Rose Edith Kelly and they travelled to Cairo in 1904; there, Crowley claimed to have been contacted by a supernatural entity named Aiwass, who provided him with The Book of the Law, a sacred text that served as the basis for Thelema.
        After an unsuccessful attempt to climb Kangchenjunga, Crowley returned to Britain where, in 1907, he and George Cecil Jones co-founded the A∴A∴ as a Thelemite order. After spending time in Algeria, he was initiated into the Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.) in 1912, rising to become the leader of the Order’s British branch, which he reformulated in accordance with his Thelemite beliefs. After spending the First World War in the United States, where he worked
        for British intelligence services to infiltrate the pro-German lobby, in 1920 he moved to Cefalù in Sicily, to run a commune known as the Abbey of Thelema. His libertine lifestyle led to denunciations in the British press, and
        the Italian government evicted him in 1923. He divided his time between France, Germany, and England, and continued to promote Thelema until his death.

        Crowley gained widespread notoriety during his lifetime, being openly bisexual, a recreational drug experimenter, and a social critic. As a result, he was denounced in the popular press as “the wickedest man in the world” and erroneously labelled a Satanist.
        Crowley has remained a highly influential figure over western esotericism and the counter-culture, and continues to be recognised as a prophet in Thelema. In 2002, a BBC poll ranked him as the seventy-third greatest Briton of all time.

      • Satan worshipper killed and skinned his mother on ‘unholy day’ that demands for a ritual human sacrifice Upside down crosses found carved into skull of dismembered woman
        Judge says ‘ritualistic’ murder was most vulgar he had ever seen By Daily Mail Reporter
        PUBLISHED:
        14:32 GMT, 18 July 2013
        UPDATED:
        16:14 GMT, 18 July 2013
        A man who strangled his mother and then dismembered her body when he was 18 years old has been sentenced to 25 years in prison. The murder by Moises Meraz-Espinoza was described as one of the ‘most disgusting, hideous and vulgar’ cases the judge had ever seen. A trail of blood and an electrical circular saw, with bone, blood and flesh stuck to the blade, were found in Meraz-Espinoza’s California
        apartment after he confessed to the killing in February 2011. Confession: Moises Meraz-Espinoza has been sentenced to 25 years for killing his mother Victim: Amelia Espinoza was dismembered and symbols were carved in her skull Prosecutors said that Amelia Espinoza had been skinned, filleted and dismembered as part of a satanic ritual, according to KTLA 5. The 42-year-old woman’s dismembered body was found in a freezer in the
        Maywood apartment. Her skull, with the eyes and teeth removed and two upside down crosses carved into it, was discovered in a backpack, but her organs were never found. According to CBS Los Angeles, he used box cutters to skin his mother before freezing her, and got a tattoo of an upside down cross when first in jail. Prosecutor Heba Matta said Meraz-Espinoza had been motivated by satanic beliefs, which he was ‘heavily entrenched in’, according to the Los Angeles Times. Matta said Meraz-Espinoza has several tattoos with satanic imagery, including upside-down crosses and a 666 behind his right ear. A satanic bible was found near the crime scene and the date of the murder, February 2, 2011, fell on a day in the satanic calendar that
        calls for ritual human or animal sacrifice

        The date, which is celebrated as Candlemas by Christians, and is also celebrated as Groundhog Day, falls halfway between the winter solstice and spring equinox, and has pagan roots. According to some satanist worshiping websites, it is celebrated by oral or anal sex and human or animal sacrifice as a way to initiate new members.
        ‘This crime was not in the heat of passion or rash and impulsive,’ Mr Matta said. ‘It was done for the purpose of devotion. That’s pretty much the ultimate sacrifice.’

        Meraz-Espinoza, from east Los Angeles, was convicted of first-degree murder by a Norwalk jury in June. He had confessed to the murder two days after killing his mother, when a cousin he confided in convinced him to go to police.
        ‘I don’t know what I can say to turn your life around, but you’ll have a lot of time to think about it,’ Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Thomas McKnew Jr told the 21-year-old, who appeared in court with foot-long braids and a partly shaved head. Crime scene: Police followed a trail of blood to the shower and found a circular saw with bones and flesh in it Ritual: Prosecutors claim Meraz-Espinonza was motivated to kill his mother at their home by satanic beliefs Defense attorney Jonathan Roberts tried to play down the connection, telling the court: ‘The contemporary church of satan doesn’t believe in human sacrifice,. I never bought that an [18-year-old] kid would adopt the principles of an organization from 50 years ago.’ He added that the factory worker lacked the expertise to skin and dismember a person on his own and referred to Meraz-Espinoza’s later statements claiming two other people were also involved.

        At the time of the murder, ABC 7 reported that he was believed to be depressed after his girlfriend was knocked
        down and killed by a car. However, Mr Matta told the court: ‘This was sheerly motivated by evil.’

      • So are all gruesome murders considered to be driven by ritualistic Satanism? The end of the release even states the boy was not in his right head and was depressed after his girlfriend was killed by a driver. Gruesome, yes, Satanism, no.

        Side note: human sacrifice doesn’t always mean human, but something from yourself.

      • Who ever said that all gruesome murders were committed by satanists? Among the human population murder has always flourished, it is seen as a method of controling the masses and getting rid of potential rivals, sometimes to prevent someone from telling what they shouldn’t. Humans is animals.

      • Equality means equality for everybody, if the 10 commandments are displayed at the Oklahoma State Capitol, then other religions are legally allowed to display their own symbol, doesn’t matter if we agree with their message or not.

        Would obviously be easier if no religious symbols are displayed, but the Oklahoma capitol chose to allow 1 religious symbol, so by law they are required to accept all others, or back off their original decision and take away the 10 commandments.

        ACLU is doing nothing to affect individual rights, you can put the 10 commandments in your private land and block all other religious symbols because this is protected by law, OK State Capitol is a government building that is for everybody, including Christians.

        The Christians on the other hand are doing things against individuals rights, forcing religious discrimination toward others because it doesn’t fit Christianity. All those laws against gay marriage, gay adoption, women’s reproductive rights are laws forced by Christianity that affect individuals rights.

        Also Satanism is based on the Christian Bible and believes, comes from the Christian Bible, just follow it very differently. Christians are the ones who believe that Satan exists. Would you call someone of a different Christian based faith less of a Christian just because their believes are different than your Christian believes?

      • You would like that, yes, no religions mentioned at all. Then you would be free to immerse yourself in debauchery. ” All those laws against gay marriage, gay adoption, women’s reproductive
        rights are laws forced by Christianity that affect individuals rights” I have loooked at those video’s of abortions, of the murder of innocents, of babies surviving the abortion and left to die on soiled clothes, of other babies pulled to pieces, one bit at a time, a leg, an arm, a head. yeah, woman’s right to muder. You want to be able to have it off with a bloke, get some soothing butt ointment then, already we have seen gay adoption, nine children adopted by one gay couple, guess who is up on charges for child molestation. Go any lower and you lot will start molesting animals.

      • Oh, an earth without religion would be a dream.

        Imagine a world without religion, no 9/11, no Iraq or Afghanistan war, no DOMA, no discrimination against LGBT or women, and that’s just recent history.

        How many wars would have been avoided if there was no religion.

        Every year we see that more and more of earths citizens are leaving religion, religion is a believe mostly held by older people while the younger people are losing those old believes very fast.

        The good thing is that at least religion is disappearing.

      • You still fail to answer the question of 50,000 babies murdered every year. You fail to answer any question, you trot out the same ones over and again but answer nothing. You reckon that Christianity is disappearing, you little twerp. You will find out differently.

      • Come to join the fun Frank? So you want an empty earth devoted to bum boys and baby sacrifice, you live in a world of delusion, you think that everybody has been dropped on their heads and have suddenly become homosexuals and worshippers of Moloch and Baal, a cult so evil that even for the Romans they were too much. Frank, I can help you achieve your dreams, all of the bum boys and all of the baby murderers can be bundled off into space and you can all go to Mars and start again, a new Planet of the Apes, we throw in a few Gorilla’s, some marijuana and an earth all of its own, think about it, it will be your paradise come true? Only when you are there, do not pick up anything by bending over, one of your delightful homosexuals might consider that as an invitation. Oh what a world, no religion, just what Adloph Hitler would have wanted and of course, no wars. But the pink swastika mob would be welcome to hey Frank, The top elechelons of tha nazi party were all pooftah’s so they would be welcome. Imagine, an earth with no deviants, no pooftahs, no homosexuals, men free of the fear of bending over because of the bumboys, no women murdering theior babies, no sacrifices to Moloch, it is a good thing that you are planning to leave. If Aleister Crowley is ever reborn, be sure to realise that “that” particular pagan will have a free passage to your utopia, but promise that you will go with them, we do not need your foolishness of earth.

      • Frank, you are scrapping the bottom of the barrel, name one Christian, just one that did any wrong. Adolf Hitler was a homosexual.

      • Where do you get your information from? Adolph Hitler was married to Eva Braun, only married for a short time but they dated for years before that.

        Eva Braun was a women.

        You are the one who brought up Hitler, who is a perfect example of whats wrong with Christianity and other religions.

        Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.

      • Hitler rejected their vesion of Christ as being weak, he was inclined to a warrior Christ as in old gemanic legends. Adolf Hitler was raised by an anticlerical, sceptic father and a devout Catholic mother. Baptized and confirmed as a child in Austria, he ceased to participate in the sacraments
        after childhood. In adulthood, Hitler became disdainful of
        Christianity, but in seeking out and in trying to retain power in
        Germany, he was prepared to set aside his views on religion out of
        political considerations. He repeatedly stated that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on science.[1]
        It is generally accepted by historians that Hitler’s post war and long
        term goal was the eradication of Christianity in Germany.[2][3] The adult Hitler did not believe in the Judeo-Christian notion of God, though various scholars consider his final religious position may have been a form of deism. Others consider him “atheist”. The question of atheism is debated, however reputable Hitler biographers Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree Hitler was anti-Christian. This view is evidenced in sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann which are contained within Hitler’s Table Talk, an influential translation of which was completed by historian Hugh Trevor-Roper.

      • On the 4th of July, 1776, your founders would have openly displayed the ten commandments and would not have considered Jewish teachings or Islamic teaching, I venture to say they would not have allowed an enemy of the west to live in the US, so when did your founding fathers change this state of affairs?

      • Yet again we are splitting hairs. The origin is Hebrew, therefore they are Hebrew regardless if they were given to all mankind. Just as Nuclear Power was developed in the US and has been granted to other nations that have demonstrated the ability to use it properly.

    • Lets take a vote and see if it should come down, if you believe we are not a Christian nation, do you believe we are a democratic nation? Very simple. lets vote as a Christian I will go by the majority. It is the church that is against so many of the peoples rights not the majority of the Christians. I am a Christian and I am all for womens right and the right for anyone to marry and so are the majority of us.

      • It wouldn’t matter if you took a vote or not. The memorial is on federal land and is to be for all veterans, not just those who are Christian, according to Public Law 109-272 from August 2006. BY LAW it is to come down. This was done with a bi-partisan Congress with reps from all across our nation. It was decided when they federally acquired the land so this is a moot point.

      • And the dead mind very much. How many complaints from the dead have you had? You, you personally, you do not give a bugger about anybody else, you hate the cross, you do, not thousands of other people, you couldn’t care less about them, you only care about your own warped and twisted beliefs.

      • I do not hate the cross, I actually do care about my brothers and sisters in arms far more than you believe.

      • As an aside, how many complaints have you ever heard of from any dead? That’s the thing, the dead cannot speak unless they are restless spirits–which is against the Christian beliefs–and as such they have no way to complain to you… or is it that you just aren’t special enough to hear the complaints?

      • Yep, you have it in one. I am not special enough and neither am I talented, I just don’t have the qualifications to hear from the dead.

      • So now, if my beliefs were created with a foundation of Christian beliefs as you have said that all are, then how does that make them twisted? Furthermore, I care very deeply about other people and I have survivor’s guilt. I fully believe that had it been me in place of Rasheed, Polly, Randall, and the two Iraqi troops assigned to my unit that were killed in 2003, that all five of them would still be alive this day and that no one would have mourned my loss. If I didn’t care for anyone, I wouldn’t have survivor’s guilt, would I?

      • By and large, I see that we only have three correspondents writing on this page demanding that the cross be removed, only three, why are they so anxious, a profit to be made?

    • Why do you care? What does it cost you if a cross exists on federal land? Your protest at what others do lends belief to your own sense of entitlement and belief that the rules don’t apply to you. How do you know why anyone is complaining. Sounds like projection to me. Do some internal analysis, Frank H. You are not without offense to others.

    • Of course, there will be a crescent and star there. And you need to go back and read the Federalist Papers, Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Toqueville. before you start telling me that this was not founded as a Christian nation. Oh, don’t forget the Declaration. (Do not reply, you will not be replied to.) Merry Merry CHRISTmas, though I am sure you are working since it is a Holy Day and you would not want to be seen celebrating it.

    • You again, still here? So you are concerned for womens welfare,I would be too if I was awatre that they were murdering their babies, a symbol of intolerance and hate. So now you reside in a pagan nation, have you voted in a referendum on this? prepare your self for judgement day Frank, you will get a ticket to hell.

    • You back again with nothing new to add, nothing about holy matrimony, nothing about the videos on abortion, so how do you reconcile holy matrimony for homosexual marriages, how do you explain the abortions where live babies are allowed to die in piles of dirty linen, how do you account for a law that allows a baby, not fetus, but baby to be pulled to pieces, a law that allows for babies to be decapitated. 50,000 babies every year, so say on or will you leave to come back later and post those very same comments again without answering a single question, cat got your tongue?

  12. It saddens me to think that a group of atheist can demand a cross can be taken down that means nothing to them. What are they afraid of? Not only are they spitting in the eye of God but of every soldier who has fought and died for their freedom. If these brave young people haden’t sacrificed everything the atheist wouldn’t have the rights to demand this cross be taken down. Where is the respect for their families? Where is the love for their fellow man? Jesus commanded us to love our enemies yet they can’t even love their own countrymen. Satan uses every one that will allow him to and it seems he has a firm hold on this particular group of people. Where is your heart when you can’t even tolerate a symbol of thanks for the ones who sacrificed so much. I would hate to be such a person. How empty and shallow their lives must be.

      • No one is stopping the atheist from putting a memorial up to them. I haven’t heard of anyone atleast have you?

      • People who seek to destroy a memorial to fallen soldiers do not care one iota about the voluntary suffering of one person for the sake of another. They only care about themselves and their sensitive feelings. Another person’s death or sacrifice for their benefit is meaningless crap to them. The epitome of selfishness. Coldness of heart. It’s ridiculous that such complaints are even taken seriously.

      • No one said to destroy it. Furthermore, would you feel the same way if it had a Pentacle in the middle instead of a cross?

      • Logic is lost in this argument. In 1993, the original plaintiff in the cross case, Howard Kreisner, debated ultra-conservative and Christian, San Diego County Supervisor Dianne Jacob, on the San Diego NBC affiliate TV station. Her main argument for keeping the cross was that local pilots for years had used Mt. Soledad as a navigation aid. Howard then said, “We’re talking about removing a cross, not the mountain.” For some reason, facts have evaded the supporters of the cross and they come out with some real weird stuff. And, I doubt West has any clue about the history or legal issues involved. It is quite evident from his bigoted rant about atheists.

      • Except you are not disagreeing, you are attacking. Read your own comments towards Malcom and myself and you will see that.

      • You will clutch at any straw to expand your position, you are a bigot, you have nothing to offer anyone and all that you can do is preach hate.

      • Why would you have a Pentacle in the middle if not to be hurtful? The cross is an acient sybol of immense suffering, a method deamt up by the Persians and copied by the Greeks until finally perfected by the Romans. So why raise the issue of the Pentacle?

      • How is a Pentacle hurtful? It represents Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit. There is zero hate in the symbol unless you personally decide to put hate into it. If you are referring to a pentagram though, that is a topic for a different day.

      • Bullshit. You hide behind symbols and call them harmless. The fact is that you have nothing and will always have nothing.

      • How is a symbol harmful? It is the idea behind the symbol that you fear. I have a full heart and soul along with a mind full of wisdom and general knowledge of a multitude of things. I have everything because of that and it cannot be taken away.

      • You bring up the isue of hate, zero hate, but no one mentioned hate,only you have, so why do you bring up hate when discussing Christ? You start of a conversation with a negative, it will deteriate from there downwards. Had you wished to keep it conversational, you would not have started by being insulting.

      • I have not insulted anyone on this page nor has my conversation been negative. As for no one mentioning hate, you have used that word in describing me no less than 100 times in the last 24 hours. Judge not…

      • Judge not or what? Try to trip me up will you. Not so simple boy. Allow me to educate you. In Jerusalem, Jesus sat idly as a commotion drew near, a crowd had gathered about a woman who they dragged along with them. The approached Jesus and said, ” Master, this woman was caught in the act of
        adultery, our law commands that she should be stoned. Tell us Master, what you say should be done ( Jesus knew their intent) and continued to sit, the crowd growing restless, hoped to catch Jesus out because they knew he was not a man of violence and tried to get him to condemn himself. But he said to them, let him among you who HAS not sinned, cast
        the first stone. Catching them off guard, they realised they had been outwitted and dropped the stones they had gathered and departed. Jesus went to the woman who had been taken and said, “Woman, where are thine accusers? And the woman, looking around said ” Lord, there is no-one” So Jesus said to her ” then neither do I accuse you, go, and sin no more. Now the reason for this event was that Jesus knew the penalty for adultery but had he allowed her to be stoned, there would have been no chance for repentance because you need to repent while you live, you cannot do that after you are dead.

      • You have judged me based on your own shortsightedness.Therefore everyone else is allowed to judge you without recourse.

        Understand that you are not Jesus and cannot honestly say who has or has not sinned.

        Lastly:
        Your shortsightedness is hindering your religious growth. At this point I ask you not continue this discourse with me as you have violated the terms of use above with the use of profanity, vulgarity, and disrespect. You will undoubtedly try to say I have done them same yet there is no posting where I have been vulgar, used profanity, or treated anyone with disrespect, nor have I disrespected anyone’s beliefs. I have however offered differing opinions from their faith, yet I have never suggested their faith was inferior as you have done in almost every post you have.

        I say good day sir.

      • What would an atheist erect as a memorial? It becomes a moot point as the thesis for atheism is a complete and utter nothing, so why would an atheist wish to erect a memorial?

      • The cross is a sign of respect and a reminder of the hope of resurection, just because a soldier may be lacking in Christian faith does not mean he is dis-respected. In the shadow of the cross, all fallen soldiers are respected, no-one is dis-respected. Do you have a problem with the symbol of the cross?

      • No, I have a problem with the fact that when this cross was erected it was stated to be a gleaming white symbol of Christianity and not a symbol to rally to for the Veterans past, present, and future. One way makes it strictly religious, another way makes it a memorial to the Fallen Service Members. I know many veterans that would disagree that this cross represents them. When you take a religious symbol and raise it on a memorial for all, then you better make sure it represents all.

        I can yell you that this monument does not represent all four men that Allen West lost in Iraq in 2003. I know because I knew the men as I was in West’s unit–he was my commander.

      • You are splitting hairs. Because today it is fashionable to bag Christians, you feel emboldened to join in. In all the wars past, no such objection were raised, in fact, these days any sin is encouraged simply because a lot of you cannot be bothered to try to understand the message that Jesus brought, a dumbing down of the population is a causal factor.

      • How am I splitting hairs? I am stating a FACT, something you still cannot grasp. I was raised Christian, I chose a different path because I could not understand why a god of peace would allow so much bloodshed. Understand this because I hate reliving what I’m about to say.

        I have seen children blown to bits–innocents that caused no sin or crime–by there parents and by our own troops. I have had rockets and mortars land less than 10 feet from me with the only thing saving my hide was a wall of stone surrounding our TOC. I have had mortars land danger close while guarding a fuel farm in Iraq. I have had bullets pass my ear and kill my battle buddies. I have had to hear a man screaming while burning alive for 8 hours while trapped in a vehicle. I have endured numerous combat injuries that would have crippled you. And I have personally been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people. So get this through your skull: Your god turned his back on me when I was an ordained minister and a combat soldier. I kept the faith but it was when my now ex-wife blamed me for everything under the sun happening and me deploying again that it finally clicked and I realized that it wasn’t a test but a condemnation. I am still ordained, yet I am now a Pagan Priest because it is one of the few religions on this planet that has not fought a war in the name of its religion, only defended itself from others.

        I know the bible far better than you will ever understand it and I honestly don’t give a frag about what you think. I have my reasons for leaving Christianity.

        If you doubt the above, ask LTC(R) West about Mushada Fuel Far, the Security Package to Kuwait at the end of the deployment, Salba Bor, East Samara Air Field, Kiruk, Dakuq, Touws, and Tikrit.

        Go find someone else to spout your nonsense because I am one of the few on this board that 1) knows what I’m talking about and 2) has served with Allen West.

      • well goody for you. so you want a100 points for being a good boy? An ordained minister but you knew nothing about the world or life before you joined the army, so in that repect your faith was weak, playing games with pagans and smoking pagan weed will not lead to any understanding and neither will it bring peace.

      • Keep libeling me, You know nothing about me. I was ordained while in service and the only drugs I use are those prescribed by the docs at the VA. I have never used illicit drugs.

      • You can join Mohammed in the desert and smoke woopee weed until Thor comes along with his hammer and gives you a thump on the head, now stop being an idiot and wake up.

      • Just as my name has multiple spellings as well. The difference is that If someone just said “John” instead of “Jon” then they would not be referring to me but to someone named “John.”

      • Jon, I know about your past, God is not responsible for that. Man has free will, you blame God but if God waved a wand and made everything sweet and rosy what would be the point of living in the world. So in Gods world, heaven, it is all peaches and cream, now we have to change our selves and our bestial nature to deserve that world. What value would it have if we never worked for it.

      • The cross is a memorial, not for the soldiers but fot their families, you want to take that away from them. If a family has a fallen soldier and that soldier was not Christian but the family was, then the family has a right to that cross.

      • The memorial is for the remembrance of the Soldiers for future generations, the cross was not raised to honor the families but the veterans. Ask the group in charge of it.

    • I am curious to know who the “group of atheists” is who are behind this lawsuit. Can you please supply a name or some information on this group?

      • Atheists are a religion devoted to Satan. It is a religion, that is why they wish to destroy Christianity, they do not attack Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims, perhaps because in the pie chart they are known as others and they resent it. What other reason would they have for coming together as a society. They aim to destroy Christianity and for that reason they worship Satan as was foretold, this is leading to the end of days, any reason to protest is enough. You are to be condemned for believing in Christ, their enemy.

      • Your ignorance is making my head hurt. No religion is aiming to destroy Christianity. Atheism does not follow a deity hence the a- (prefix meaning non-) and theist (meaning beleiver). From my personal experience from travels around the world and in working for, and subsequently attaining, my D. Div.,I have seen first hand as well as read reports of how Christian missionaries have treated the indigenous peoples when they entire an area.

      • Atheists do the work of the anti god, Satan, you may close your mind to the possibility but no matter how much you try, the message of Satan slips thriugh. Just like a commercial advertising campaign gets the message through by repetition, so with the subtle arttacks by the anti god.

      • And again you must not have read what was written. Satan/Lucifer/devil/etc are all of Christian origin. Therefore it does not translate that everything you believe is wrong in this world is the work of the devil. Is science the work of the devil? What about nature? Nature does some crazy stuff from time to time, that must be the “work of the devil” when an ivy vine breaks through the foundation of a church. No, it’s nature doing what she does best.

      • It is astonishing the lengths that some people will go to to deny the divinity of Jesus, you may tear and shrug but you cannot offer any proof of what you say and consequently your belief is of no consquence. In the matter of Jesus, there is sufficient evidence to convince billions of people down throught he ages to accept him. Some very smart and clever people have had the belief. How much proof do you need, a gold embossed card from God?

      • You are being rude and disrespectful which is a violation of the terms of use as stated above. I have sent an email to the page’s editor. Please do not continue any conversation with me as I have no desire to continue an argument with a person who does not wish to look at anything more than their narrow view. I am asking this time, please do not have it escalate further. Have a good day and please understand that regardless of what you say or do, your attitude will cause you to be alone forever, if not physically then emotionally.

      • No person is born with wisdom, wisdom is discovered over time. If you were born wise then you would know the consequences of everything you would do for the rest of your life.

      • A man, a ships captain was crossing the Atlantic ocean carrying a cargo of slaves, the ship was beset by a storm and the captain feared for his life and prayed, he was an atheist. His prayer must have been answered for he turned the ship around back to Africa and released the slaves. He then wrote a song.

        Amazing grace
        how sweet the sound
        That saved a wretch like me
        I was, was lost but now I’m found
        was blind but now I see.

      • The biggest enemy of Christianity is a tossup between people who are
        blase or Islam, Islam wishes to do so by violence. Any story about Islam
        tends to be about violence or suicide bombers or beheadings. The
        prophet of Islam, Muhamnmed, started a campaign to murder Christians and
        Jews, Muhammed must have been a powerful motivational speaker because
        he manage to convince his followers that a defeat was actually a victory
        but beyond their understanding. Now as to missionairies, what sort of men were they before they decided to become missionairies.

    • You hit the nail on the head, shallow and empty, it comes from all of that time spent in the desert sun smoking whoopee weed. Same thing happened to Muhammed, he left the desert completely bonkers and crazed with killing.

  13. I was raised in a catholic home, went to a Methodist church as an adult and have since become an atheist at 59 years old. I am never offended at religious symbols, but they belong on private property, not public property. In all good will, I understand why some Christians feel under attack, but you need to think a bit more about the constitution and those who do not ascribe to your faith. I enjoy the beauty of religious symbols and the great ppl I know who are believers in one faith or another, but the constitution clearly does not allow they establishment of one religion by the government.

      • Let’s also look at the Crusades in which the Muslims fought and repelled the Christians for two hundred +/- years.Didn’t the Christians have the protection of the same God?

      • Let’s also look at the Jihads that took place from the 7th to the 11th century. The muslims took over (by force) the Holy Lands (christian lands) and killed, expelled or converted by force all the christians in the Arab peninsula. And all the christians in the middle east became second class citizens. And it wasn’t God the one who helped muslims, those were antichristian idiots and satan. (Yes, Islam is a satanic cult)
        Stupid atheist things like the one described in the article, and supported by ignorants like you are the very ground for foreign ideological invasions. Atheists and muslims are “offended” by christians religious symbols, therefore, they must be removed. When that’s done, the useful idiots (atheists) will be removed.

      • Well first, I am neither Muslim nor Atheist. Second, I hold a Doctorate of Divinity, a religious degree which was granted to me by a Christian Church, with emphasis on world religions so to use the term ‘ignorant’ in this context you must really know everything about every religion on this planet, Juan. Third, This memorial is supposed to represent me as well when I die ( according to Public Law 109-272) which it cannot do so long as the cross is the only religious symbol present as I am Pagan. Fourth and final, Satan is a term found in Christianity, not in Islam nor in 99% of the other religions of the world, therefore you cannot use it accurately to describe other religions.

      • To put it simply, Paganism is a polytheistic, nature based religion, which is recorded as far back the Neanderthals in the Paleolithic Era of our world.A Pagan is one who follows a path within Paganism, be it Wicca, Heathen, Druidic, Egyptian, etc.

      • He follows the route his ancestors took, his Neanderthal ancestors, he seeks truth from the weeds that he eats.

      • what Christian Church? There are like 40,000 “churches” in the US. The best theologians I know have studied in Catholic Universities. But, in any case, your studies had to be very limited, because, Satan or the Devil is mentioned in the Hadiths, and Muhammad was possessed by one.
        And, if the memorial is supposed to represent you “as well”, why are you against the Cross? Aren’t you a christian? Ohh, I see, you are that “kind” of christian, the one who don’t like to “offend” atheists, muslims, satanists, wiccans with a “cross”. God forbid!!!

      • I’m a Pagan, as stated numerous times. You can read right? Pagan is not any type of Christian–in fact many of the “Christian” holidays are actually taken from Paganism. Even the days of the week (in the English Language) are named after Pagan gods and goddesses: Sun, Moon, Tyr, Odin, Thor, Freya, and Saturn. The month of January was named after Janus, the Roman god of beginnings and endings. Every planet in our solar system, their moons, and even the asteroids are named after Roman gods.

        Best thing for you is to learn Hebrew and ancient Greek and Aramaic and then read the original scrolls of the bible. You may understand more.

      • Clutching at straws are we Jon, so the Roman calendar is named after Roman gods. No one worships those gods unless you do, At one time, if you must know and didn’t learn from your exhaustive studies, Latin, the language of the Romans survives today in science and medical terminology, now get it right. easter is equivalent to the Passover, and Christmas or the mass of Christ, so no holidays were taken from the pagans, go worship your thunder gods and mind thor when he swings his hammmer.

      • You are clutching at whatever you eel you can to try and goad me into something. I will not accept your stupidity, instead I will replace it with something else.

        “To know one’s enemy is Wisdom. to know one’s self is enlightenment”

        “The most skilled soldier is not soldierly, the most ferocious tiger is not ferocious”

        “I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; when thou speakest not to warn the wicked from his wicked way, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity but his blood shall I require at thine hand.”

      • I have read the bible many times. The first two quotes came from the Tao Te Ching… which was written well before Christ walked this planet.

      • Jesus said that before Moses he was I AM, now if you wish to have this discussion with the Chinese………..?

      • And if someone today was found speaking to a burning bush, what would happen to them? The bible also mentions to arms (physical and spiritual) against all others so that Christianity is the sole religion on this planet. But I ask you this: If we found that there was another life form on another planet that looked different than we do, who would you say created them? What if they say that their god said to annihilate all other life in the universe and that they were made in their god’s image. Would you still cling to your beliefs?

      • Therein lies the heart of the problem the yet to be addressed what if, of all the other planets in the universe, should there be life therein, of the hundreds of billions of galaxies there must be uncounted millions with life on them and they must hold true to all of the problems that mankind has encountered, so the word of God must be true everywhere for it to have any validity. It will be an eye opening experience and a time of great learning.

      • I’m not Heathen. I’m a mixture of Hellenic and Solitary. A Thor’s Hammer as my grave marker would insult Thor.

      • No man can hide under the banner of God and commit barbarity, the banner of God will not akllow that. disobedience comes at a cost, for that reason God allowed Nebuchadnezzar to overcome the Jeswish defenders of jerusalem and carry then off to captivity to Babylon, God does not protect human beasts.

      • I have noticed that their are five requests that await my attention, do you have an automatic uploader when the number falls below five? God did not allow men to behave like butchers, they did that all by themselves.

    • and it clearly doesn’t ‘establish one religion’ by creating a memorial for veterans whom are dead and gone in a heavily Christian nation…

      • In truth there only about 28-36% actual practicing Christians in this nation as of 2012, according to a Pew Research Group poll.How is that a heavily Christian nation?

      • You say practicing, I do not go to church but I am a Christian does that mean I don’t practice it? I am not a believer of the church I am a believer of Christ. Also that may be government property but as it is stated it is not paid for by the government so what is the atheist problem with that? As far as I know,no other religion has ever been stopped from putting up the same type of memorial. I have nothing against any religion putting up something like this as long as they pay for it and care for it without using my money unless I donate to it.

      • The Islams are being stopped from putting a place of worship in New England. In Texas a few years ago the Christians battled the formation of the Fort Hood Open Circle. You will never see any type of religious symbolism on 99.9% of the US veterans/military memorials, so why does there need to be an exception? Furthermore, this is on FEDERAL LAND, not private land.

      • Unless it has changed, every grave marker in Arlington and other military cemeteries have a cross, Star of David, or nothing if the fallen had no preference. Of course these are individual makers.

      • In Angola the government there is banning Islam and is demolishing mosques. Islam is not a religion of peace, it is a political movement intent on establishing a global caliphate and beheading those who resist. On god’s green earth, long before there was a US and long after there is no US.

      • Angolan Africans are not besotted with poitical correctness, that is their strength, that is the weakness of the west.

      • agreed… and from my understanding this attack has been going on for years… initially when the property was privately owned, and then the gov’t bought the property and now it is the church v/s state argument…

      • I saw a map today, and it broke down the Christians v/s Muslim v/s atheist… We are heavily, heavily Christian of many denominations… Don’t fool yourselves. Practicing means what? Go to church 10 or more times per year?

      • If you want to play the semantics game that’s fine. In this case we are referring to how many Christians actually follow the teachings and commandments of the bible. How many Christians put money first before their God? How many Christians are in jail for theft, murder, and rape, among other crimes? At least 84% of inmates in prison in 2011 were Christian, FYI. How many Christians actually honored/obeyed their parents as a child and as an adult?

        The vast majority of Muslims–even the non-practicing ones–still follow the commandments set forth by Abraham and recorded centuries later by Mohammad. So what’s the excuse for Christians?.

      • Excuse or reason?… I’ll tell you the reasons as I see them. 1) The 1962 Supreme Court ruling that took a 22 word voluntary prayer from schools… 2) the 1980 Supreme Court ruling that took the 10 Commandments out of schools saying ” The children might read, meditate on and do them, an that would be unconstitutional.” 3) Roe v/s Wade… If you take religion from the people and then say, “why don’t the people follow the law, or why don’t the children obey..” It is foolish to even ask the question! Our liberal culture has perverted the meaning of the Constitution and GODS laws…. No wonder we are at Satan’s door… As for the Muslims… they are allowed to follow their book without interference as they have for 1400 years. Why? Because they’ll slaughter you if you try to stop them!

      • Muslims actually won’t slaughter you if you attempt to stop them from reading the Qur’an. The religion is not quite 1400 years old yet as well. Satan was created by Christians and does not exist in other religions. I agree that our current administration has all be destroyed the actual Constitution, but the people voted for him (not me, I actually have a brain).

        1) The prayer violated the separation of Church and State policy that has existed in this nation since before its inception
        2) The 10 commandments would not have been removed had schools allowed students to learn other religious texts dealing with laws as well. The school districts refused and thus they were removed as well.
        3) Each religion has its own moral codes so that argument is technically invalid

      • Then why does Iran call the US The Great Satan?… I didn’t vote for the bastard Obama either and do not consider him a president.
        1) No where has the Constitution been more perverted than by lawyers than the 1st Amendment… The Supreme Court Justice Schooler? ( bad with names) 1811 appointed by Madison… framer of the Constitution, clearly describes this amendment as protecting religion and not making a national denomination… Yet here we are stuck in the mire of Communism via court decision.
        2) Untrue… totally untrue. The Constitutional issue was and I repeat, based on the words that “may read, meditate on and do these things.” The school districts have zero say in Supreme Court Issues…
        3) If you take the religion away… how do you have any “moral code”…? America has been systematically robbed of her religion and her culture via liberal court decisions.

      • How about we ask the thousands of people burned at the stake for witchcraft or killed in the name of god during the Crusades by Christians on that note.

      • That’s the point, you think that because it didn’t happen this year or this century that Christians never did anything wrong. The majority of people in prison in this country are Christian. It’s not because the population is mostly Christian because if everyone practiced Christianity there wouldn’t need to be a prison system. Your religion killed thousands of people because they believed differently. This was during the creation of our country. Centuries before, the Christians went to other countries and tried to forcibly take back “their holy lands” from people that had the exact same holy lands. The history of your religion is to take and to force conversion.How is that a religion of peace? The religion you follow is no better than the Muslims you condemn for doing the exact same thing!

        LEARN FROM HISTORY OR BE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT!

        This is a legal issue, not a religious one, your symbol has no place at a memorial that is supposedly dedicated to ALL service members past present and future. I can name at least a thousand veterans that it doesn’t represent.

      • Learn from history?… Pal you are the one that needs to LEARN. You need to history, the Bible, and law.
        I’m not saying humans haven’t had the same problems they’ve always had…. They’re lazy, greedy, lustful and murderous. That is why Christians follow the Bible and reject those wretched behaviors. And you are right, if everyone followed GOD’s Laws and obeyed his Commandments we wouldn’t need prisons. Alas, he gave us free will… It is up to us daily to choose Jesus and repent of all sin, and love God and our neighbor, and if we do this, we will have an eternity in Heaven where there are no prisons or killers or sadness or pain. Just love and Joy and Peace. Peace is attained through the personal relationship Christ, the redeemer.
        Christians don’t FORCE CONVERSION… if anything that is a very Muslim trait. ( Where did you even get that idea?)… They offer a different way. Salvation and freedom from death of the soul. You don’t force people to LOVE.
        Palestinians apparently are your buddies… Even though there is no “Palestine”… and I get the feeling you are very anti-Semetic as well as anti-Christian and pro-Athiest…not that any of that matters. In America we have the freedom to worship… Americans of all religions and no current religion are being robbed of their rights by courts and litigators. Removal of Christianity from the public square has been going on systematically for 60 years or so and we are seeing the results now.
        So the veterans this particular monument doesn’t represent ( The 1000 you mentioned ) have the choice of adding the A… or their symbol to be recognized,..always an option these days… but they prefer to completely remove monuments that have nothing to do with whether or not they were good, bad, christian, jew or muslim or dog catcher, but the fact that they served this country… How does taking away, and destroying add to the history or the respect for those lost? It doesn’t and it never will. It is the same thing you are trying to do now… Revise History… To bad pallie… It is written, and there is only one being that gets to make that decision, The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.
        So good luck with your studies. Law or not,.. GOD WILL DECIDE.

      • Actually being PAGAN I honestly have no ill-will towards any religion. I was raised Christian–Baptist actually–and I have studied the bible cover to cover on several occasions. I have also been studying history for over half of my life, mostly military history, but I have focused on the history of the Middle East as well. I have sailed the Mediterranean sea from the Pillars of Hercules through the Suez Canal and back up again around Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. I have seen the Ziggurart, at Samarra (with Allen West as well), I have been to the lands of Ur and swam in the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. I have studied more history than many people in this nation, and I have lived it.

        Christianity covers Catholicism as well, believe it or not, the facts apparently do not matter to you and your ilk. I recall that the Catholic Church did have a policy of forcing conversion upon the people and if they did not convert they were killed.during the Spanish Inquisition Muslim Law actually has a section for the “protected peoples,” those who pay taxes to Islam as the rest of Islam would and are not required to convert. Please check your facts madam.

        I have peace, but I am not a Christian. My heart is not hardened nor do I have hatred towards the vast majority of the world–only those actively trying to hurt my family or myself.

        No one has been allowed to add another religious symbol to this monument. Those who have tried were arrested. The Monument was on private property originally, then acquired by the city, then annexed by the federal government. It is cheaper to remove the one than erect hundreds. Also, no one said it had to be destroyed. Go make an offer on the cross and see if they will sell it to you if it means that much to you. Again I mention this because none of you have picked up on the FACT that when this cross was erected on an Easter Sunday that it was state this cross was a gleaming symbol of Christianity. Not that it was a symbol to rally to for the troops and remember them by.

        It almost seems like you only read the opening of this article: http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=53545 when you started to attempt to tell me how wrong I am for not being a Christian. Please understand, I chose not to be a Christian. I chose it because I do not like the way women are supposed to be treated according to the KJV and I do not like that each and every single verse has been altered to fit the translator’s desires. If you want to know the actual bible, read it in Hebrew (Old Testament), Greek, and Aramaic (New Testament) and then tell me if what I say is incorrect. Until you have done what I have, you have no ground to speak on. May the gods have mercy on your soul for Cerberus won’t.

      • Darlin’ I know for certain that I will not be reading the Bible in Hebrew… and I also know that your “ILK” (what a disgusting word) is your attempt to disregard my opinion along with the majority… However, many will try but few will be found suitable and you dear, probably shouldn’t continue trying… This isn’t about YOU… and until you discover that you aren’t the center of the universe,… well,… just let me know how that works out for you… May GOD Bless and KEEP you and teach your heart that making everyone smaller, doesn’t make you any larger.

      • If you won’t read it in its original format shows that you honestly do not care for the actual “word of god” but only for the watered down translations. In fact, if you were to read it in its original format you would find that a few things were a little different. To make it easier on you, try here: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

        I have never once said this was only about me. I have however said that this cross does not represent the majority of this nation’s veterans, including me. I have no desire to make anyone smaller, only open their minds to see that there is much more to be gained by listening to others than just seeing what is in front of them. I have no desire to enter into what you consider heaven for I have an idea that it is much different than what Jesus actually described it as–especially considering you have not taken the time to actually look and see what your sacred text actually says about it.

      • More bullshit. And you keep trying to bait those who take the time and trouble to answer you. You are a hate baiter, you only wish to stir up trouble for troubles sake. You want to remove a cross, so what about the dead men who died under that cross and don’t start the guff about all of the pagans etc el al. You are a trouble maker for troubles sake.

      • You spent a bit of time in the desert sun too and are as cuckoo as Mohamnmed, go and smoke some pagan weed and get enlightened.

      • Learn to spell and stop trying to libel me. If you actually sat down and read and/or travel to other countries you may find there is more to this world

      • No idiot, madman Mohammed was sunstuck in the desert and came out with loopy ideas about paedophilia and marrying children, beating wives and beheading anyone he didn’t like, but Mr lunatic, you keep on baiting and talking a whole lot of rubbish, with everything out of context. No Christian ever did any of the things that you accuse them off. So go back to your asylum.

      • You see, he is enjoying baiting people and to do so he will happily delve into the distant past to find a connection between Islam and Christianity. It is a game to him. Go on then idiot, go and ask all of the people killed, how do you propose to do that moron, you are only playing a game of baiting people, you are an evil little turd.

      • Who is baiting whom? Th person above said to ask the beheaded London Soldier, I proposed we also ask those of whom the Christians have slaughtered. If you cannot add to the conversation without spewing hatred, please leave it alone.

      • Whom the Christians slaughtered?. The middle east was almost completely Christian but that has dropped off to 4%. Mulslim fanatics are killing anybody who gets in their way and people tip toe around the issue because of political correctness, that is what has stifled free speech, that is the calling card of Islam, you silence fee speech at a cost. Islam is a religion of hatred, has always been a religion of hatred and thanks to modern technology, developed by Christian nations Islam now uses technology to carry out their murder campaigns world wide. Islam is murder incorporated, Islam is the religion of slaughter, and if you don’t know that then you are not looking.

      • Iran is Islamic, correct? Islam, like Judaism and Christianity are “Abrahamic” religions–all stemming from Abraham–and thus use the same terminology.

      • Did they drop you on your head or are you being deliberatley obtuse. Islam has no connection with christianity, you brag about you theological studies, you should know this and you do, you come here to bait people for perverse pleasure. Islam is the ravings of a madman.

      • Seriously? No one is being obtuse. I suggest that before you continue that you read some history. In addition, many of the notable people of the Qur’an are also in the bible–even Jesus.

      • You read your Koran Jon, complete with its Arabic spelling, I have no wish to read a book written by a desert madman.

      • You are a complete idiot, Islam will kill you first chance that they get. Muslims will breed faster than you and outnumber you and take over without firing a shot. You talk rubbish, every decent coomment you counter, you are a complete idiot, how do they let you out of your asylum without supervision or do the lunatics run the asylum.

      • Actually it was 600 +/- years after the birth of Jesus that Islam was founded. Furthermore, the Jewish in the OT had many wives of young ages as well and that was even accepted for Christians up until the Protestant Reformation. Beheading versus stoning, crucifying, beheading, et cetra, were also Christian punishments.

      • So you do listen to outsiders, from a research group, so, getting lazy are we. You dissapoint, you did not get this information from your pagan gods or goddesses and neither from chewing the sacred weeds.

      • Say again? Quit trying to goad people into your ignorance. Wait, at this point you know better so it is stupidity.

      • This is from Cornell University’s Law School: http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause Right after it is the Free Exercise Clause. Both clauses are in the 1st Amendment.

        Furthermore, the cross mentioned above has been stated to represent “a gleaming white symbol of Christianity.” since the current one was dedicated in a ceremony on Easter Sunday, 1954. This symbol of Christianity, now on Federal property for over seven years, is to be legally removed.

      • It doesn’t Jon, it is not in the book but it is in the minds of men and has gained a currency all of its own. To me it brings comfort, it was the last experience that Jeus had on this earth, so to that I hold onto as a powerful symbol of hope as did he, hope that we could be redeemed.

      • Just as I see the Pentacle as the combination of Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit and I wish it to be placed on the same memorial. The people that maintain it refuse to allow it and thus the US court system has said if all cannot be, then neither shall one.

    • The right thing to do would be to ensure that there is nowhere in the US that is against the constitution, having done that and ensured that all laws are correct and no unlwful activity has taken place anywhere then address the issue of the cross. Then you would have right to remove it. You would be wrong to but at least you tried honesty.

  14. Who are these Atheist people anyway? Who are the people in charge of this group? What are their names and what are their backgrounds? I think that we all have a right to know so that we can make sure not to support them in any way at all!

    • Maybe a little knowledge of atheism would help here. Unlike with those who practice a religion, there is no one in charge of any atheist. We don’t have priests, pastors, imams, popes or rabbis. We have neither leaders nor followers. And, in the case of the current law suit of the cross, there is only one atheist plaintiff. Neither the ACLU nor the plaintiff’s lawyer are atheists or speak for atheism. As far as supplying names and backgrounds, how ridiculous. I have nothing to hide and in my community, I am a public figure whom anyone can check out. Also, I don’t know of any atheist acquaintances who would be secretive. And, if you actuallty did research the issue, in San Diego, there are numerous Chritsians who oppose the cross and atheists who consider all the hoopla a waste of time. Instead of taking the headlines from West as truth, take a few minutes to check out the entire subject. You may be surprised at what you find.

      • If atheist feel it is such hoopola… then why do they bother to attack any Christian symbol that is publicly displayed,,,if they live a live and let live life then just let it be …as long as you are not shoving it down my throat do your own thing….No they can’t , they insist on being their own hypocrite , I can’t just let be… I have to Mess it up for you because I am not in the lime light or something else is getting my 15 mins. of fame….poor you

      • I am fortunate to live in a city where the government ordered the erection of a monument to the soldiers of the great war, involved in this monument is a cross and an angel, no such arguement exists here.

      • There is ONE (1) plaintiff. This is not the Atheist Community as a whole trying to make this happen. Don’t judge a population by one person’s actions.

      • Ok so maybe I am disillusioned by this.. BUT, I drive a truck and should I say then- that I see this one atheist billboards all over the country……and the spew it says…I certainly hope that the ” community” Never tells someone that they love anyone… Christ is LOVE , and without HIM… there is no Love, as the season tells us …Without Christ, there is no Christmas

      • And I suppose as you’re driving your truck you’ve never seen a billboard promoting Christianity? I certainly have while driving my car and they far outnumber atheist-oriented billboards.

      • Actually he and I both came to this site to offer our opinions as to why the cross needed to come down. It seems your reasons are less altruistic though.

      • You came to this site to remove a cross, I came to support a cross. You are here out of hate. You are only here to create a controvery. So what next, will you be for banning crosses on churches.

      • I came to site when Allen West was still running for congress when it was still allenwestforcongress.com. I came to support my former Battalion Commander and in this situation I came to read an article he posted and I made my comment on it and corrected a few erroneous statements. I am not here from hate or to spawn a controversy. I am here because my former commander asked for opinions. I honestly don’t give a frag who puts what on private property, but when it comes to federal land and federal laws I side with the law, not with emotions such as yourself.

      • I admit to being less than perfect, that is why I am here, but really, all of your reasons for demading the removal of the cross, it just does not make any sense, you have a different reason for disliking the cross and this website was just an opportunity to have your say.

      • Actually at this point in time I am still here just to annoy you and cause you to continue to waste time that you could be using to annoy other people. Now that my traveling is done for the time being I can be on here every hour of every day waiting for you to post something… I’ll be you Krampus…

      • What a shocking event, finding a billboard promoting Christianity. I suppose that upset your master, the anti god.

      • Are you really this lacking in social skills and common sense that you cannot understand that an atheist does not believe in any deity?

      • What you can’t seemt understand is that daemons are not your cute garden variety, the do not play around with cute fluffy pink toys that go squeek when squeezed.

      • Actually Christmas existed many many centuries before it became Christmas. It was actually decreed in 350 A.D. by Pope Julius I that the 25th of December would be used as the Nativity.

        3rd Paragraph: http://www.motherbedford.com/Christmas.htm

        If this one doesn’t work for you, I’m sure you can find it in at least 1000 different locations, including the Vatican’s Archives.

      • I did not say Saturnalia was. Are you actually going to deny why the 25th of December was selected for xmas? Are you seriously going to deny what was mandated by the Pope before the Protestants ever really started? Are you honestly going to deny that the whole purpose of using the Pagan holidays was to make conversion of the Pagans easier?

        And no, Christians do not allow me, or anyone else, to be for if they did you wouldn’t be giving your opinions on anything here. And my father-in-law and brother-in-law would spout the same things you have been every time I visit.

      • Saturnalia was chosen by foolish priests because it made it easier to convert people. Most of these early priest were atheists in that they didn’t understand the message that Jesus was teaching but you knew that already, you just want the satisfaction of upsetting people, that is why you will not get away with it. God will prevail no matter what you think.

      • The popes of Rome were busy playing dictator for a thousand years before the reformation got itself going. And many people didn’t want to convert, so december 25th was used to overpower the old religion. I never said that the popes were honest or even Christian and I doubt that they considered themselves to be. Just as corrupt as any man can be, but that is not the fault of Christ, and that is why so many must try harder to be worthy of heaven.

      • I personally agree with you, as a agnostic, I think with all the crap going down in the world, shouldn’t people be more outragedwith starving children, our young people running around knocking people out, etc. I don’t care what your religious symbol is, I can respect your beliefs while not believing myself

      • Donna, you are the first agnostic person I’ve heard that has said something of value! If you “Believe” in the Cross and what it represents, great! I believe in it! If you don’t believe in it, then quit letting it bother you! It isn’t going to hurt you!

      • Wjhy not ask your secular leaders to do that, they didn’t seem to mind spending the money for war or for printing $4,000,000,000,000 to help out their banker mates but nothing for you, maybe that is why 28 million people have lost their homes to the banks. face up to it. While you are getting hot under the collar about Christians, your government has taken advantage of your foolishness to screw you.

      • just a small correction. Unlike Christian church leaders, a rabbi is more like a teacher than someone in charge. It is my understanding that the Jewish religion doesn’t demand blind obedience but encourages asking questions.

        As for this issue, it seems to me that only someone very insecure in their beliefs would need to be surrounded be their reminders. If someone truly believed, they wouldn’t need to be reminded by it so often. Or in public. They must be missing something at home or in church to be so needy.

      • No you don’t have any spiritual leaders…You have lawyers, talking heads.Numerous who oppose, how many is Numerous, is it a majority, have you spoken to any non English speaking Hispanics who are Christans. Malcom when the minority bends the will of the majority towards their beliefs thing like Nazi Germany happen. Also when you start to go after the Jewish symbols of their faith lets see how much of a fight they will put up. Your not a public figure, but a public pest.

      • What a pity that Jon has asked me to to write any comments about his comments to him. His last departing shot said that the Australian Government allows dogs to be used for shark bait, now as I understand it, anybody using dogs for shark bait will pretty soon be cactus, the culprits in the use of puppy,s and kiitens for sharkbait are America and France,. and Jon is upset at the gleaming white cross of Christianty and the cost of putting up the symbols of other religions. Obama is doing a wonderful job with your economy, he has printed $4,000,000,000,000 so no religion will miss out, he has plenty of money and he can be trusted with four trillion dollars.

      • 90% of the people posting here won’t even do any research on the subject: they think that because it’s a cross being legally removed that there should be an overall outcry. What they are not getting is that regardless of whom started the suit, since 2006 the cross was up their illegally and needs to be removed.

      • So it was alright from 1954 but suddenly became not all right in 2006. And the bubble heads who make your law made a bad one but you will back it all the same. Now if bubble head made a law requiring that you remove your little fingers, would that be law as well that you would take seriously? So will you now demand that the cross, formed in a tragic attack, fell to the ground as a cross and now has pride of place where the twin towers stood, should be removed as well because it is offensive to Muskims and atheists.

      • Before 2006 it was on private land even though it was donated to the city decades before. It should have been removed when the land was donated to the city.

        I demand it be removed because it will cost our nation, who already doesn’t have enough money to pay its debts, more money to design, build, and erect the several hundred religious symbols that would need to be erected to make this right. A cross does not represent me. This cross was erected with the words “gleaming white symbol of Christianity” attached to it and describing it. If I raised a Pentacle and attached the words “to honor the Pagan gods,” you would be just as fervent in getting it removed. That, sir, is hypocrisy at its finest.

      • Then you don’t have the faith that the Christian God will help you walk here and stand firmly before the dozer.

      • Are you really concerned about the cost to your nation of a cross? Somehow I doubt that. You might be concerned by the billions given to the bankers who caused the economic collapse and their hefty bonuses, you might be concerned about the 28 million people who lost their homes due to bank foeclosures, you might be concerned that all of your jobs are being exported to China and that your government is printing money like mad, so maybe your nation doesn’t have enough money to pay its debt but who has been at the helm, who has printed $4,000,000,000,000 and what has he done with it, why hasn’t he paid his nations debt. Who on Earth can get their hands on that much money and not be tempted?

      • And you of course support such a ruling, an offense against the law is terrible, never mind a population fighting against itself, never mind about government foul ups that have cost jobs or that people have lost their homes, that drug taking is rife, that alcohol abuse is over the top, that 50,000 babies are murdered every year, No only important laws like an illegal cross that has to be moved.

      • What about the animals being used in Aussie as shark bait?

        Guy, I honestly don’t care what you think. Call me the devil if you want, that just gives me more power over you for you are the one feeding it to me.

      • I don’t believe in ‘practicing religion’! I believe in a wonderful fulfilling true relationship with God our Father. He loves me and I love him. He is my protector, comforter, my healer, my absolute ALL in life. All we have to do is believe in Him as little as in the size of a mustard seed! Read His Word. It will come alive to you what He is all about!! God speed!

      • Christians who oppose the cross? Any man who denies Christ is not worthy of Christ. I notice that when you mentioned atheists, you said we. Did you include your master the devil?

      • You again, ever ready to shove your oar in. Anti Christian in your views and God will have an accounting of you.

      • Christians who oppose the cross? The gleaming white cross of Christianity? So which branch of Christianity opposes the cross?

      • Again, the devil is a Christian idea. Stop comparing everything you are against to the idea of a demon. Does a demon make the sky any less blue? Does a demon cause the grass in Texas to die from heat? Does a demon cause an idiot to drive drunk? Not everything non-Christian is of the devil. Period. Every single bible scholar, preacher/priest, even the Pope will tell you that. We were given free will, let us use it the way we choose.

      • Since you don’t believe in God I would scarcely expect you to believe in a daemon. I have never seen a comet but they exist. I have never seen an asterroid but they can kill you all the same.

      • I do actually believe in daemons, just not demons. daemons were considered wise spirits in ancient Greece. Demons on the contrary are essentially your devil’s version of angels.

      • No one said that Pagans do not believe in your god, we just don’t worship it.Daemons are Greek spirits of wisdom. Demons are part of Christian mythos.

      • No, I believe that it is old English as in paedophile, you notice the “a” in that word, English is like that and I like old English so daemons it is.

      • Life is opposites, God exists so there is an anti-god to tempt man. All cultures have daemons or nature spirits, so never mind what the pope says, he is as clueless as the rest of us tryng to find our way. Sunlight can cause the grass to die, when the temperature reaches 43.4 degrees celsius like it did yesterday, the grass doesn’t stand a chance. And you are correct. Not every thing is caused by a daemon, only that whisper in your ear when you are tempted.

  15. [email protected]‘t it make you wonder why they are so offended by the presence of the cross? By the presence of a nativity scene? By the words “Merry Christmas” or the thought of children receiving notes about God with the Christmas gifts they received by the efforts of others wanting to do something good? Could it be that somewhere inside of them, they feel guilt about their denial of God and want those reminders taken down, so they won’t feel something tugging at their hearts every time they cast their eyes upon it? There WILL come a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord, but until that day, there will be those who fight it. As the time grows near, we see it being fought more and more. To those who oppose, you’d sure better hope you’re right. For what have I lost in this life by having hope and faith, if I am wrong? However, if you are wrong, you have an eternity of suffering to endure… Not weeks, months, or years… Search yourselves. Find out why you are so angry and offended by something that should mean nothing to you.

  16. It’s ok when a tragedy happens they will cry out for help from who? who? people who just so happen to be Christians and see themselves as accountable.

  17. And all the hoopla atheists keep trying to change will eventually make American a nation with less accountability. Which will of course make America so much better (sarcasm). Atheists are sooo smart with basically believing in nothing which leads to people not believing they should help them. Keep taking Christian things out of America you just may be making America worse for your future generations. Did they think of that no they didn’t. Instead lets think of what is constitutional which is always their God. Mmmm something to think about. Something that makes a fellow atheist laugh isn’t always better for America.

    • A petition would not matter. This is a case where the monument is on federal land. Federal Law and regulations state that the religious symbol must be removed from the federal land.

      • Yet according to designers and architects of the building these represent the Bill of Rights. This is according to the same website.

      • Again not exactly John. Here is the text. It is the curator who claims to have a letter from the sculptor not the architect but that is refuted in the same passage. Notice at the end of the article the reference to the Congressional Quarterly and the National Park Service. “This marble frieze featuring a tablet or tableau with Roman numerals I through X directly above the Chief Justice’s chair is identified by the Supreme Court Curator’s Office as “The Bill of Rights,” and not the Ten Commandments. The Curator claims to have found, within the past few years, a letter from the sculptor describing this as the Bill of Rights. However, the context of the frieze depicts classical figures and symbols of law and government, which would make the Ten Commandments much more appropriate to the theme than the Bill of Rights, more especially in light of the prevalence of the Ten Commandments symbols throughout the building—in Roman numerals—and the corresponding lack of such Bill of Rights symbols. Moreover, the Congressional Quarterly’s Guide to the United States Supreme Court (1979) identified this symbol as a “tableau of the Ten Commandments,” as does a 1986 National Historic Landmark book on the National Park Service’s website here. What do you think? Commandments or Amendments? “

      • Unless you are looking at the original parchment version of the Bill of Rights, you will see that at least 90% of the time (especially in history books) that the Amendments are written as Article I, II, III, IV, etc. The letter in question also states that the tablets are the tablets of law, not the Ten Commandments. Furthermore the fact that it is Roman Numerals would not have mattered either way since the original tablets written in an archaic form of Hebrew, not Latin. Lastly, if you notice, the same tableau has two other Eastern law givers: Confucius and Solon. Solon was a Athenian lawmaker who stated there are three reforms (constitutional/ideology, economic, and moral). Confucius was a Chinese philosopher who’s laws dealt more with how a government was to treat its people and should the government fail then its people have a right to revolt. Confucius had three laws yer only laws two and three would apply to the US since law 1 states that the government of China was heavenly ordained.

        And it’s Jon, not John. The former being a sub-part of my full name, the latter being a full name.

      • Jon you seem to discount any opinion or article that disagrees with your view. In this case you disagree with the Congressional Quarterly and the NPS cited in the article as sources I can show you at least two SCOTUS decisions that says our country was founded on Christian principles. You would probably discard those as well, going into some abstract explanation of what I read isn’t what is said. What can I say? For that reason I am done with this discussion. Sorry I misspelled your name. I’m 63, and significantly older than you judging from your profile picture. I retired at 57 because I had done well enough financially to do so. I was able to do that due to two things my parents taught me at a very young age. I have two sons in their 30’s. One is a broker/partner in a successful financial firm, and the other a Chemical Engineer, in charge of domestic manufacturing for a major energy company. I taught them the same things my parents taught me. This Jon along with hard work is the secret. Contrary to your opinion of yourself, you are not always right, other people have valid opinions and facts you can learn from. Secondly God gave you two eyes, two ears and one mouth, for a reason. Have a pleasant life.

      • I did not discount your statement, I am going with the most recent information on it and comparing it to what I’ve been taught. If going with the most recent information is discounting your statements, then I am sorry if it offended you. You have even stated that the curator said it was the Bill of Rights. I added onto the discussion to provide more background on it, not to say that I am always right because I’m human, therefore I am not always right. The letter may not have been available when the book was written in the 80sor when the guide was written in the 70s. We have found artifacts from the 1800s all over the place, so it is logical that it was only recently found.

      • Jon, the basic fact is this. A likeness of Moses is carved into the building in several places. Some of those carvings depict Moses holding the tablets containing the commandments. He would not be holding the Bill of Rights. That makes no sense what so ever. Read the article. The curator claims to have found a letter from the sculptor saying the roman numerals above the Chief Justices Chair depict the bill of rights. He never produced the letter! Critical thinking time here. The context of the entire Frieze is ancient figures not 200 year old history. The curator should produce the letter and clear this up!

      • You see, he says it doesn’t matter, but if Obama put an islamic symbol anywhere, it would then be OK. So back to spill some more hate are we? What about? The gleaming white cross of Christianity?.

  18. When all this BS surfaces yet again, I immediately think of Madeline Murry O’Hare and her what now is ‘supposed’ atheist stance: to me, she was just that– BS –; everything she (and family) did ended up just being about money. One is supposed to NOT ‘profile’, but that is what “case law” is; something was ‘interpreted’ , legally, once before, so a decision can now also be made based on that previous decision. Why is it legal JUST for the COURTS to do this, but if anyone else attempts to do so, it is illegal? It’s an OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • You should update your knowledge of history. When Ms. O’Hair (correct spelling of her name) first was reported missing, many believers laughed and alleged she took off to New Zealand with the money from American Atheists. Eventually, when the organization was taken over by Ellen Johnson, an audit as conducted that showed the O’Hair family did not take one cent from the organization. Then, after her body and those of her son and grand-daugther were found and her personal financial records were revealed, it was evident that she had very little money. She was an abrasive human being, but she fought for what she thought was right and did not benefit financially. On the other hand, the fellow who stole from them and bludgeoned them to death was a Christian who once worked for O’Hair as a business manager. He was cooking the books and O’Hair fired him, but did not press charges. Look what she got in return for her benevolence.

      • The fellow who worked for her was not a Christian. MS, the abreviation means Multiple Sclerosis, nothing else, more fluff from the loopy left of which a large percentage are journalists, so what got you started on your rant of hate,was it the gleaming white cross of christianity?

      • You realy can’t keep your mouth shut can you, all that you can do is to stir the pot. Easter represents the passover, Christmas celebrates his birth but because no one knew when that was, they settled for the date of Saturnalia. No do go and shut your troublesome mouth, like a good litle laddy, it must be past your bedtime, ask mummy to give you a nice glass of milk, maybe she will kiss you and tuck you into bed.

      • The same could be said about yourself: In one day I have seen more posts from you, mostly criticizing non-Christians, than from Malcom overall.

      • Good for you Ronald, though Jon is a little little boy who is playing with his mommy’s laptop while she is in the shower.

      • Considering I have several computer systems and a T1 line, I don’t think I need my mother’s laptop, especially since it’s from the late 1990s.

      • He does not come to these postings to communicate Jon. He come here to stir the pot, as far as he is concerned Christians stole his beliefs and changed them. Christ has never given anyone any reason to hate him or his teachings.

  19. my reps are marxists (sob). but remember God will answer them.however; I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.
    Thomas Jefferson

    • good Jefferson quote. I like the word “tremble”. When we reflect on the holiness of God the creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we should tremble, but we don’t any more. Seems so many buy the big lie in the garden of Eden . . “you shall be like God”.
      One of my favorite verses of scripture is from Exodus when Moses is at the Red Sea and everyone’s complaining, he says “Do not be afraid. Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord.” I too often find myself needing to be told just that.

    • All the hate promoted in the name of Christianity is really making people think that perhaps even Satan isn’t such a bad guy after all.

      • Christians don’t hate!! They attempt to let all know of God’s truth for all mankind. God put’s commandments in His word out of His love and our protection so we don’t make wrong decisions! God help you if you truly believe S isn’t the enemy. Just know if you join S, you’ll find out that S has already lost his battle and it will be evident in the last days before Christ’s return! God be with you, Frank H>

      • What you say is hate, all that you can do is mention hate under the assumption of throwing mud, eventually, some of it will stick. You are a lost cause, you are not excused.

      • Back again and the first word is hate. Now you have made a choice of satan over Jesus, you are a false witness against Christ. The only hate on these pages come from you anti Christ.

  20. Chances are the atheist who wanted it taken down hates the military and anyone who serves in it anyways. The ungrateful nature of most Americans is despicable.

      • Which is a freedom he fought for: the Freedom of Speech. In this case we are talking about the establishment clause within the 1st Amendment. I hate what America has BECOME (a bunch of idiots saying they are entitled to everything yet want to give nothing back) from what it WAS when I was a child yet I still spent a third of life fighting for this nation

      • Were you a pagan when you were a child or didn’t you start to hate until you grew up and decided to bait the people who come to these pages with your anti christian hatred for the gleaming white cross of Christianity.

      • Have you always hated everyone since you were a child or is it just since you became an adult and realized Santa Claus wasn’t real?

      • The first plaintiff in the cross case was Howard Kreisner, a US Army vet who worked for 20 years in civilian life for Veterans Affairs. I know quite a few former US Marines and soldiers who served in Vietnam and were not allocated benefits from the system whom Howard helped to get the benefits they deserved. The plaintiff who took over after Howard moved out of state was Philip Paulson. He served two tours of duty in Vietnam for the US Army. I sure wish people like Nathan knew what they were talking about before they spouted off at the mouth.

      • If only they didn’t go on about the gleaminbg white cross of Christianity. That really gets up your nose.

  21. I’m trying to educate your reader about my post, you encrrage it, Don’t you ??

    Their (The people that want to remove all religion) are afraid of Jesus Christ (God), that’s why they have to remove any and all mention of him. Without God were nothing.

    Learn the History of the NWO …
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-klNO-AjW6M (1 1/2 hour viedo) New world Order Link.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-klNO-AjW6M&feature=player_detailpage

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-klNO-AjW6M&feature=player_detailpage#t=2875

    One of these links above will give you the history, to see how the NWO (New World Order) Has raised into power and what their goals are. Please forward this to as many people as you can.
    This is where the fight should be and the people involved.
    _________________________________________
    Also: Educate Yourself on the Constitution

    http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/12/convention-states-scam-war-constitution-states-sold-reserved-powers-feds/

    This a link above is about the proposal of the “Convention of the States”
    This article gives us deep insight on what the Federal Government powers should be under the Constitution of the United States. Also exactly (WHY??) do we need a Convention of the states?

    WE need to clean house as fast as we can !!! PLEASE E mail these to as many people as we can.
    Can we make this go Viral ?? I sure hope so.

    • You have a leader but unfortunately, he is an Islamic leader with wishy washy followers who hang on his every word, thinking that he is the Messiah.

  22. this nation was built on god he exixt hese here and hese staying and if they don’t like it they can take there anger fears and all and climb the nearest pine tree backwords they don’t want any one telling them what to do or to try to force their opeanions on them what goes round coumes round get over it GOD AND JESUS CHRIST BLESS AMERICA

    • Evidently, God must have bypassed your elementary school.. A fourth grade English teacher would flunk you for grammar, usage and spelling.

      • He missed you too otherwise you would have recieved a caning. At least Mr West has only God in his heart and no harm.

  23. I just find it amazing how 5% of people in the United States can control 95% of the people in the United States just because of them not believing in GOD …what a shame.. ..

    • They get away with it because they are a noisy radical group and people tend to shy away from them because of the arguementative nature of pagans who hold Palaeolithic Era Neanderthal beliefs of smoking Whoopee weed in the hot desert sun

  24. #1 – It wasn’t atheists it was the Jewish Veterans of America with the ACLU that sued over the cross.

    #2 – If it weren’t for activist judges, Allen B. West, would still be sitting at a separate counter.

  25. Do NOT take down the cross. Fight it till the bitter end! Enough of this liberal bleeding heart nonsense constantly imposing their liberal minority agenda on the majority.

      • Who is instigating this action and why. Just a bunch of Philadelphia lawyers with nothing better to do than to upset people where it is not necessay. Bitter hearts. So you believe in every jot and tittle of the law and have never shirked from it, you are faultless. Well, bless me.

      • I obey laws out of belief in the social contract. If we didn’t need them to survive as a nation then I would do only what is in the best interests of my family. My heart is not bitter, on the contrary, for if it was I would not have given 11 years of my life, my right hand, my knees, ankles, mind and back in defense of this nation’s freedoms. I enlisted because in order to maintain our freedoms as a nation someone must stand that line and traditionally it was members of my family that would stand toe-to-toe against the foe. That is my family legacy: to live and die by the sword so that others may be free. What’s yours?

      • The freedom to denigate Christians who cause you no harm. Your nations freedom was under God and your leaders knew that. you do not.

      • I have neither insulted nor been critical of anyone in this forum. I have however stated facts when what was presented was invalid. You on the other hand are attacking everyone on this page be them Christian or not. And that sir, is not very Christian of you.

      • Jon, I have been at this compurter for 14 hours, this arguement is circular, petition a politictian, petition veterans affairs, pretition the department for indian affairs, ask them to erect a memorial suitable to your status as a native american.

      • Unlike Frank who keeps repeating the same old mantra of hate Jon, you at least explain yourself. My brother was a servicemen in Vietnam, the only thing about his army service is that it entrenched in him a drinkers code. Unfortunately, the Australian army has loose policies about drinking to excess and many come out of service as alcoholics. This is a cross that I have borne for many years and it has cost me a fortune, now he is harmless and thankully he lives in a country town a few hundred miles away. You suffer from PTSD after such a long stint in the army, I imagine that you would. Ironically, it is a christian virtue, you served and suffered to protect your nation, your people and your family, in your family, a tradition, in my brothers case, a chance for adventure. So we do what we must. In your case, family tradition.

      • I’ll give you something more out of that as well. The rank of Sergeant literally means Servant, as in servant of the nation. While yes, there are Christian values from what I have done, those same values are found in various other religions as well.

      • I have never said that only Christ had good values, it stands to reason that cultures everywhere would arrive at the same philosphies since they were of benefit to every one, hence mothers everywhere would tend to their children as happens in the animal kingdon as well as with humans.

      • Sorry but God’s commandments take preceedence, don’t like it, compliain to God that he is favouring a faith.

      • Until you actually can prove 100% without using faith or the bible that your religion is the one true religion, your words mean nothing. The 10 commandments were also found as part of the Code of Hammurabi who predated Moses by a bit. AND since you want to continue with this debate so badly, it was the Angel Gabriel who gave Muhammad the Qur’an.

      • In have already posted the codes of hammurabi. Arch Angel gabriel didn’t give muhammad the koran, that book is so badly written only a sun struck lunatic could have wriiten it. Muhammed thinks that God told him that Paedophilia was OK and marrying chidren was terrific as well.

      • Considering the Qur’an is only allowed to be published in Arabic, I’ll assume you know how to read that language.

      • What the Muhhamedins say does not affect me here. The english version of the Koran is available at bookshops, beside, why would I be interested in the Koran?

      • You cannot honestly give a review of how it was written without reading it. Otherwise you are commencing a fool’s folly.

      • Would you enjoy readning Mein Kampf? Consider that Muhammed spent a lot of time in the desert gaining delusions of grandeur and rewriting the bible, adding his fantasies allowing paedophilia and marrying children, all of it preposterous, if those are his qualifications then the book does not have much to recommend it.

      • 1) There was no claim that he made of re-writing anything. Especially when you consider that the religion was originally oral. 2) Where do you keep getting this notion that he was a pedo? He wasn’t, it’s those who have perverted that religion who are so. 3) With as much as you tend to speak about that subject, one could concluded you are one as well.

      • Let what you see guide your belief’s, any number of video’s posted by Islamic men show them kissing boys on the lips and many statements about Moslems marrying children, children who die when the marriage is consumated. Islam came after Christianity and borrowed heavily from it. Islam is a religion of violence and death. Search for yourself, you do not need me to do that.

      • And that’s their culture, just as the French kiss each other (male or female) during a greeting. Does that make all French bisexual?

      • Two things Jon, (1) Idid not ask you to stop writing, I did comment that I cannot spends hours answering every comment that you post, I do have other things to do. To compare French customs with Islamic paedophiliacs. Be an apologist for Islam right up to the day they lop your head off.

      • Three things: 1) I have asked you to stop trying to push your views on me and on others and you refuse, so I will no longer continue this discussion. 2) Call Islam a religion of whatever you want to, just bear in mind that Christians were and are just as violent and have been for a vast amount of the religion’s history. This violence is documented. 3) After reviewing your postings on several pages I have come to the conclusion that you either are a very bitter old man with nothing to do except spread hate speech and push your views onto everyone or that you are a very good actor of the first and that you really actually care for everyone that you either insult, attempt to intimidate, berate, or flat out spew ignorance onto. It is for this reason that I have contacted the people that run Disqus with regards to you and your comments, and I am deleting my account.

        “These intellectual guys don’t like to have an intellectual conversation with you unless they’re running the whole thing. They always want you to shut up when they shut up, and go back to your room when they go back to their room.” — J.D. Salinger (From “The Catcher in the Rye”)

      • Do what you think is best Jon. Regarding the human animal, it is the worst on the planet, so while we argue about a cross a slaughter takes place world wide, a slaughter of animals under the most horrendous conditions, look up any PETA tape on the net.

  26. How does the Cross hurt anyone? It doesn’t, so leave it alone. Where is this atheist group’s respect for others? While I don’t believe anymore, I have respect for those whom do. That Cross isn’t hurting anyone, and if anything it is art, art made for those whom have died for our freedom.

    • Its a symbol used to promote hate, oppression and discrimination.

      Many of us are tired that this symbol is being used to justify hate toward other people, discrimination for other peoples marriages, discrimination against women and their rights.

      As long as that symbol is used to justify hate, we don’t want to see it on government land, keep that awful thing on your own private land.

      The monument is coming down.

      • If you don’t pick and choose verses of the Bible, you will see that there is a lot which is not loving nor is it wonderful.

      • If you read the law code of the US there will be a lot that shocks you but do not be disheartened, you can’t know everything.

      • Most what is in the laws of this nation are not just from the bible but also the code of Hammurabi, Laws of Solomon, and several other things like the Common Law. Your argument is invalid.

      • The Code of Hammurabi is a well-preserved Babylonian law code of ancient Iraq, formerly Mesopotamia, dating back to about 1772 BC. It is one of the oldest deciphered writings of significant length in the world. The sixth Babylonian king, Hammurabi, enacted the code, and partial copies exist on a human-sized stone stele and various clay tablets. The Code consists of 282 laws, with scaled punishments, adjusting “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” (lex talionis)[1] as graded depending on social status, of slave versus free man.[2]
        Nearly one-half of the Code deals with matters of contract,
        establishing, for example, the wages to be paid to an ox driver or a surgeon. Other provisions set the terms of a transaction, establishing the liability of a builder for a house that collapses, for example, or property that is damaged while left in the care of another. A third of the code addresses issues concerning household and family relationships such as inheritance, divorce, paternity and sexual behavior. Only one provision appears to impose obligations on an official; this provision establishes that a judge who reaches an incorrect decision is to be fined and removed from the bench permanently.[3] A handful of provisions address issues related to military service.

        One nearly complete example of the Code survives today, on a diorite stele in the shape of a huge index finger,[4] 2.25-metre (7.4 ft) tall (see images at right). The Code is inscribed in the Akkadian language, using cuneiform script carved into the stele. It is currently on display in The Louvre, with exact replicas in the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago, the library of the Theological University of the Reformed Churches (Dutch: Theologische Universiteit Kampen voor de Gereformeerde Kerken) in The Netherlands, the Pergamon Museum of Berlin and the National Museum of Iran in Tehran.
        So why is this so unusual? The Middle East is an area where God chose to reveal himself to man and to pass on laws regarding man’s conduct. God continued to use the people of the Middle East until the modern era, Solomon was an Israeli king, common law comes from pre-existing laws in use at the time, there is no conflict. When Israel turned away from God, He then bestowed favour on Nebuchadnezzar to bring Israel to heed the word of God and as it was, Israel had to endure 70 years imprisonment.
        man is his own worst enemy.